Beirut Explosion

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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Blackhawk »

hepcat wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:46 pm It gets worse. They’re talking about metric tonnes, not American tons. That’s about 3032 American tons.

It boggles the mind. :shock:
So, 4,800 pounds in Oklahoma city vs 6,000,000 pounds in Beirut.

Just sitting, forgotten, in a warehouse.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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This looks right out of a post nuclear rpg. If people weren't in the pic you'd think it was from that tv special life after humans. All those windows in all those high rises gone.

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Re: Beirut Explosion

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The following article was just posted yesterday, too:

Analysis: Often on brink, Lebanon headed toward economic collapse
TheTelegraph.com wrote:BEIRUT (AP) — Power cuts that last up to 20 hours a day. Mountains of trash spilling into streets. Long lines at gas stations.

It may seem like a standard summer in Lebanon, a country used to wrestling with crumbling infrastructure as it vaults from one disaster to another.

Only this time, it's different, Every day brings darker signs Lebanon has rarely seen in past crises: Mass layoffs, hospitals threatened with closure, shuttered shops and restaurants, crimes driven by desperation, a military that can no longer afford to feed its soldiers meat and warehouses that sell expired poultry.

Lebanon is hurtling toward a tipping point at an alarming speed, driven by financial ruin, collapsing institutions, hyperinflation and rapidly rising poverty — with a pandemic on top of that.

On Monday, the country's foreign minister resigned, warning that a lack of vision and a will to implement structural reforms risked turning the country into a “failed state.”

The collapse threatens to break a nation seen as a model of diversity and resilience in the Arab world and potentially open the door to chaos. Lebanese worry about a decline so steep it would forever alter the small Mediterranean country's identity and entrepreneurial spirit, unparalleled in the Middle East.

In the past, Lebanon has been able to in part blame its turmoil on outsiders. With 18 religious sects, a weak central government and far more powerful neighbors, it has always been caught in regional rivalries leading to political paralysis, violence or both. Its 1975-90 civil war made the word “Beirut” synonymous with war's devastation and produced a generation of warlords-turned-politicians that Lebanon hasn’t been able to shake off to this day.

Since the war ended, the country has suffered a Syrian occupation, repeated conflict with Israel, bouts of sectarian fighting, political assassinations and various economic crises, as well as an influx of more than a million refugees from neighboring Syria’s civil war. The presence of the powerful Shiite group Hezbollah — a proxy army for Iran created in the 1980s to fight Israel’s occupation — ensures the country is always caught up in the struggle for supremacy by regional superpowers Iran and Saudi Arabia.

But the current crisis is largely of Lebanon’s own making; a culmination of decades of corruption and greed by a political class that pillaged nearly every sector of the economy.

For years, the country drifted along, miraculously avoiding collapse even as it accumulated one of the world’s heaviest public debt burdens. The sectarian power-sharing system allotted top posts according to sect rather than qualifications, which in turn allowed politicians to survive by engaging in cronyism and patronage for their communities.

“One of the problems in Lebanon is that corruption has been democratized, it’s not sitting centrally with one man. It’s all over,” says Marwan Muasher, vice president for studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

“Every sect has a sector of the economy that it controls and draws money from, so that it can keep their sect happy,” he said in a recent talk organized by the Center for Global Policy.

The troubles came to a head in late 2019, when nationwide protests erupted over the government’s intention to levy a tax on the WhatsApp messaging app, seen as the final straw for people fed up with their politicians. The protests touched off a two-week bank closure followed by a run on the banks and then informal capital controls that limited dollar currency withdrawals or transfers.

Amid a shortage in foreign currency, the Lebanese pound has shed 80% of its value on the black market, and prices for basic food items and other goods have seen a meteoric rise. Savings have evaporated, plunging many into sudden poverty.

Lebanon’s fall “represents an epic collapse with a generational impact,” wrote Maha Yehia, director of the Carnegie Middle East Center.

The pillars that long sustained Lebanon are crumbling, including its trademark freedoms and role as a tourism and financial services hub, and wiping out its middle class, she wrote in a recent analysis.

Left on its own, Lebanon could within months reach a point where it can no longer secure needs for its citizens like fuel, electricity, internet or even basic food.

Already, there are signs of the country being pushed toward a hunger crisis. Fears of a breakdown in security are real. The purchasing power of an ordinary soldiers’ salary has declined in dollar terms from around $900 to $150 a month. Public sector employees have similarly seen their salaries wiped out.

Unlike in previous crises when oil-rich Arab nations and international donors came to the rescue, Lebanon this time stands very much alone.

Not only is the world preoccupied with their own economic crises, traditional friends of Lebanon are no longer willing to help a country so steeped in corruption, particularly after the state defaulted on its debt in April. Moreover, the country is led by a Hezbollah-supported government, making it even more unlikely that Gulf countries would come to the rescue.

Lebanon’s only hope is an IMF bailout, but months of negotiations have led nowhere.

The French foreign minister, on a recent trip to Beirut, could not have been clearer that there would be no assistance for Lebanon before credible reform measures are taken. “Help us to help you!” he repeated.

The words appear to have fallen largely on deaf ears. Lebanese politicians can’t agree on the size of the government’s losses, much less carry out reforms to end the corruption from which they profit.

A complete breakdown of Lebanon threatens the wider region, potentially leading to security vacuums that could be exploited by extremists.

Writing in Washington-based The Hill newspaper, Mona Yaacoubian, senior adviser to the vice president for Middle East and Africa at the U.S. Institute of Peace, said a total meltdown in Lebanon could also provoke new refugee flows to Europe and add yet more turmoil to the arc of instability stretching from Syria through Iraq, with negative implications for U.S. allies in the region.

Given the stakes, the United States cannot afford to ignore Lebanon’s impending collapse, she argues.

“Lebanon is rapidly spiraling toward the worst-case scenario: a failed state on the eastern Mediterranean.”
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Kraken »

Interesting and worrisome. I hadn't heard boo about Lebanon's decline.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Paingod »

The inside of that warehouse sometime long before it exploded.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by malchior »

I saw one report that the stuff has been there 6 years. It isn't exactly unstable but my wife the chemist says the stuff can degrade over time which makes it less boom-y. That process is exothermic so it is releasing heat. Maybe that starts the fire that lead to the big boom.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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malchior wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:42 am I saw one report that the stuff has been there 6 years. It isn't exactly unstable but my wife the chemist says the stuff can degrade over time which makes it less boom-y. That process is exothermic so it is releasing heat. Maybe that starts the fire that lead to the big boom.
Yep, I read an article yesterday where a chemist called it a ticking time bomb after sitting for so long. So that sounds right, heat build up as it degrades and "Boom!"
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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McNutt wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:04 pm There is a fireworks factory located in a port? That seems like a terrible place for such a thing.
Not if you primarily export it.

It’s just where I’d put it in a sim.

Well, a skootch a ways away from the actual port
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Daehawk wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:32 pm Ill bet the Minister released that info knowing full well the person responsible died in the blast or they can blame a dead person for it.
It's been there for years. Dozens, if not hundreds of people knew about it. The buck should stop at the top but it won't come close.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Kraken wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:03 pm Interesting and worrisome. I hadn't heard boo about Lebanon's decline.
Yeah, I've read several articles about this recently. The situation is very serious. The country imports about 80% of what it needs, and is bankrupt. Hence as the article notes, they are rapidly reaching the point where they won't be able to afford even basics like food, fuel and medicine, among other necessities. It's a recipe for an almost apocalyptic nightmare.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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The explosive blast was estimated at 2.2 kilotons, about 10% of Nagasaki or Hiroshima for comparison purposes, about the size of a small battlefield nuke.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Grifman wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:26 am The explosive blast was estimated at 2.2 kilotons, about 10% of Nagasaki or Hiroshima for comparison purposes, about the size of a small battlefield nuke.
Little Boy - 15 kilotons
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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dbt - 7 tonnes
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Grifman wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:22 am
Kraken wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:03 pm Interesting and worrisome. I hadn't heard boo about Lebanon's decline.
Yeah, I've read several articles about this recently. The situation is very serious. The country imports about 80% of what it needs, and is bankrupt. Hence as the article notes, they are rapidly reaching the point where they won't be able to afford even basics like food, fuel and medicine, among other necessities. It's a recipe for an almost apocalyptic nightmare.
I mean, it's not a great sign when a large chunk of your country is effectively taken over by a terrorist militia sponsored by a foreign government.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Huh.
The 1947 Texas City disaster was an industrial accident that occurred on April 16, 1947, in the Port of Texas City, Texas, at Galveston Bay. It was the deadliest industrial accident in U.S. history, and one of history's largest non-nuclear explosions. A mid-morning fire started on board the French-registered vessel SS Grandcamp (docked in the port), and detonated her cargo of about 2,300 tons (about 2,086 metric tons) of ammonium nitrate
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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dbt1949 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:40 amdbt - 7 tonnes
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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You know its bad when Israel is sending humanitarian aid to Lebanon.

An explosion that big is basically outside my scope of comprehension, I can't even look at the pictures without feeling sad and angry and depressed.

I know its been said many times already, but 2020 can just fuck right off.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Jaymon wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:43 pm You know its bad when Israel is sending humanitarian aid to Lebanon.
Please keep the antisemitism out of here. Israel always sends aid to a humanitarian crisis in the region. They can't always publicize it because it's not effective if there's a popular backlash in the country receiving aid.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Kudos to the Israelis, because they're going to need all the assistance they can get…

Lebanon’s grain supply decimated in Beirut explosion
nypost.com wrote:Beirut’s massive ammonium nitrate explosion leveled Lebanon’s main grain storage silos, leaving the country with less than a month’s worth of reserves, according to officials.

The silos destroyed in the deadly Tuesday explosion contained about 15,000 tonnes of grain, Lebanese economy minister Raoul Nehme told Reuters — far less than their maximum capacity of 120,000.

Nehme puts the country’s remaining grain reserves at enough to last “a bit less than a month,” with at least a three-month standing supply needed to maintain food security.

But the minister insisted that famine was not an immediate worry.

“There is no bread or flour crisis,” said Nehme. “We have enough inventory and boats on their way to cover the needs of Lebanon on the long term.”

But leading importer Hani Bohsali painted a far grimmer picture.

“We fear there will be a huge supply chain problem, unless there is an international consensus to save us,” Bohsali said.

Most other food at the port, which handles over half of Lebanon’s imports, was also ruined, Bob Jabra, a partner at commodity trader Ibrahim Jabra & Sons, told Bloomberg.

His company lost 250 tons of rice.

Lebanon was already battling both the coronavirus pandemic and a crippling economic downturn before Tuesday’s explosion killed at least 100 people, wounded nearly 4,000 and left some 300,000 homeless.

The blast is believed to have emanated from a 2,750-ton cache of ammonium nitrate — commonly used as a fertilizer — left to sit in a port warehouse for some six years after it was confiscated from a Russian businessman, according to officials and reports.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm
Jaymon wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:43 pm You know its bad when Israel is sending humanitarian aid to Lebanon.
Please keep the antisemitism out of here. Israel always sends aid to a humanitarian crisis in the region. They can't always publicize it because it's not effective if there's a popular backlash in the country receiving aid.
I didn't read it as antisemitic. I read it as Lebanon and Israel don't have good relations and as you said they keep it under the hat usually.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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malchior wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:26 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm
Jaymon wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:43 pm You know its bad when Israel is sending humanitarian aid to Lebanon.
Please keep the antisemitism out of here. Israel always sends aid to a humanitarian crisis in the region. They can't always publicize it because it's not effective if there's a popular backlash in the country receiving aid.
I didn't read it as antisemitic. I read it as Lebanon and Israel don't have good relations and as you said they keep it under the hat usually.
That was my impression as well, nothing anti-Semitic intended. I didn't even see it as criticism of Israel.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Same.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?

Jews hoard money and Jews hold a grudge are antisemitic tropes. As I mentioned, it's untrue. Israel is a very generous country. I don't want to drag this into R&P. I'm asking people from refraining from using antisemitic tropes.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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I also took it as a reflection on the history between those two countries.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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I still don't see it as having anything to do with Jewish stereotypes. It strikes me as being about political history and animosity.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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To me its All LIFE Matters. But I dont see the offense in All Lives Matter no. Because well they do. ANyways what was this thread about?
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Daehawk wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:53 pm To me its All LIFE Matters. But I dont see the offense in All Lives Matter no. Because well they do. ANyways what was this thread about?
Spoiler:
Of course they do. Nobody said that any of the lives don't matter. The point behind the (terrible) slogan is that they're just putting the focus on the lives that are being ignored in favor of others is all.

It really means, "Black lives matter, too." It's not as catchy of a slogan, but it wouldn't confuse people as to what it actually meant.

Anyway, this isn't he place. I'm spoilering this to stop from derailing.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 pm Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?
In 1942? Sure.
Jews hoard money and Jews hold a grudge are antisemitic tropes. As I mentioned, it's untrue. Israel is a very generous country. I don't want to drag this into R&P. I'm asking people from refraining from using antisemitic tropes.
I get your point, but rather than labeling what was likely an innocent comment as anti-semitic, it probably would have been better to explain why it could have been read as anti-semitic. I think it was far more likely a commentary on the strained relations between Israel and many countries in the Middle East than it was playing off of stererotypical (and certainly anti-semitic) tropes about Jews being cheap.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:19 pm It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
Sure, but then can't we also explain why we feel it wasn't anti-semitic? Maybe my sterling arguments will change his view?
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:19 pm It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
Sure, but then can't we also explain why we feel it wasn't anti-semitic? Maybe my sterling arguments will change his view?
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:14 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 pm Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?
In 1942? Sure.
Jews hoard money and Jews hold a grudge are antisemitic tropes. As I mentioned, it's untrue. Israel is a very generous country. I don't want to drag this into R&P. I'm asking people from refraining from using antisemitic tropes.
I get your point, but rather than labeling what was likely an innocent comment as anti-semitic, it probably would have been better to explain why it could have been read as anti-semitic. I think it was far more likely a commentary on the strained relations between Israel and many countries in the Middle East than it was playing off of stererotypical (and certainly anti-semitic) tropes about Jews being cheap.
FWIW I winced a little at Jaymon's remark, and thought about posting about how Israel provides aid to its neighbors all the time. Ultimately I figured it was probably intended more as "Israel and Lebanon fight a lot" rather than "Israel is cheap / bad", though I gave those possibilities maybe 60 / 40 odds.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:19 pm It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
Sure, but then can't we also explain why we feel it wasn't anti-semitic? Maybe my sterling arguments will change his view?
Sure, you can, but why does it matter that you don't feel it was antisemitic. You aren't the one affected. I don't understand why we want to change his view.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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El Guapo wrote:FWIW I winced a little at Jaymon's remark, and thought about posting about how Israel provides aid to its neighbors all the time. Ultimately I figured it was probably intended more as "Israel and Lebanon fight a lot" rather than "Israel is cheap / bad", though I gave those possibilities maybe 60 / 40 odds.
That's why I still appreciate Hrothgar's comment. I may not have read it as anti-semiitic in any way, but I didn't even think about it that way. That's why I suggested he post that it could be read as anti-semitic rather than labeling it as definitively anti-semitic. I'm thinking we give the poster the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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El Guapo wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:33 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:14 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 pm Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?
In 1942? Sure.
Jews hoard money and Jews hold a grudge are antisemitic tropes. As I mentioned, it's untrue. Israel is a very generous country. I don't want to drag this into R&P. I'm asking people from refraining from using antisemitic tropes.
I get your point, but rather than labeling what was likely an innocent comment as anti-semitic, it probably would have been better to explain why it could have been read as anti-semitic. I think it was far more likely a commentary on the strained relations between Israel and many countries in the Middle East than it was playing off of stererotypical (and certainly anti-semitic) tropes about Jews being cheap.
FWIW I winced a little at Jaymon's remark, and thought about posting about how Israel provides aid to its neighbors all the time. Ultimately I figured it was probably intended more as "Israel and Lebanon fight a lot" rather than "Israel is cheap / bad", though I gave those possibilities maybe 60 / 40 odds.
FWIW I saw irony in Israel aiding a country that harbors its enemies (Hezbollah), and nothing more than that.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

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Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:40 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:19 pm It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
Sure, but then can't we also explain why we feel it wasn't anti-semitic? Maybe my sterling arguments will change his view?
Sure, you can, but why does it matter that you don't feel it was antisemitic. You aren't the one affected. I don't understand why we want to change his view.
From a general standpoint, why does it matter what I think about anything? This is a forum where we discuss topics like this all the time.

From an admin standpoint, I think it's important to comment as to why I don't think it's an actionable comment and to try to defuse a potentially tense situation.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Alefroth »

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:42 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:40 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:19 pm It doesn't matter what we think the intention was, right? If Hrothgar feels it was uncomfortably antisemitic, shouldn't we allow him that?
Sure, but then can't we also explain why we feel it wasn't anti-semitic? Maybe my sterling arguments will change his view?
Sure, you can, but why does it matter that you don't feel it was antisemitic. You aren't the one affected. I don't understand why we want to change his view.
From a general standpoint, why does it matter what I think about anything? This is a forum where we discuss topics like this all the time.

From an admin standpoint, I think it's important to comment as to why I don't think it's an actionable comment and to try to defuse a potentially tense situation.
You can absolutely post anything you like. I obviously can't prevent it. I was just raising a point after seeing dogpiling on someone who took offense that they shouldn't be offended.

I was typing my comment the same time you were typing your first, so it wasn't really you I was referring to. I thought your suggestion was an appropriate one.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Defiant »

I, too, winced at the remark, but figured it wasn't intentionally offensive.
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:14 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 pm Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?
In 1942? Sure.
The France-Germany relationship in 1942 is not comparable at all to Israel-Lebanon (I wouldn't be surprised at all if 1942 France "voluntarily" sent humanitarian aid to Germany). A better (if still imperfect) one might be US-Cuba. (And yet, on multiple occasions, the US has offered aid to Cuba)
Last edited by Defiant on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by ImLawBoy »

Defiant wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:47 am I, too, winced at the remark, but figured it wasn't intentionally offensive.
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:14 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 pm Until recently many people couldn't understand what was offensive about 'all lives matter.' Can you think of another democracy you'd say that about? You know it's bad when France is sending humanitarian aid to Germany?
In 1942? Sure.
The France-Germany relationship in 1942 is not comparable at all to Israel-Lebanon (I wouldn't be surprised at all if 1942 France "voluntarily" sent humanitarian aid to Germany). A better (if still imperfect) one might be US-Cuba.
That may be true, but France-Germany in 2020 is not comparable at all to Israel-Lebanon, either.
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Re: Beirut Explosion

Post by Blackhawk »

It's also worth noting that the 'racism' label is a big, big thing to apply to something these days, especially without giving people the benefit of the doubt on something with multiple interpretations.
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