MLB 2019 Offseason Thread

[El Guapo]

Well, now all the wrongdoers have been fully punished. All set!

[Scuzz]

Another thing that struck me is that MLB is absolving the players who participated in this completely. I don't think I agree with that. At the end of the day, as a player and as an athlete, you should not get away with cheating. The players acted on information they knew was cheating and they should be punished for that in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

The players are protected by a damn strong union, and apparently MLB gave them immunity for whatever info they provided.

I think the reason you are seeing GM's and managers suspended is because MLB sent out specific warnings over the last couple years that this shouldn't be done, and yet at least two teams did it. I would guess others did as well, the evidence just hasn't leaked out yet. This was to stop it elsewhere.

[Octavious]

Beltran is out as the Mets manager. We can't even get hiring a manager right! Okay okay I can't really blame management for not seeing this coming. Now who the heck are they going to find though? Sigh...

[noxiousdog]

This is now a bigger scandal than a decade of steroids.

[LawBeefaroni]

Beltran is out as the Mets manager. We can't even get hiring a manager right! Okay okay I can't really blame management for not seeing this coming. Now who the heck are they going to find though? Sigh...

I know what you're thinking but he's not available.


What about Bobby Bonilla? They're already paying him for the next 15 years or so.

[LordMortis]

This is now a bigger scandal than a decade of steroids.

It should be, shouldn't it? Unless you accept some variation of cheating is trying. Steriods were personal decisions. The forms of sign stealing discussed are systemic. Not just an arrangement between a few guys. What makes it exceptionally hard to swallow is that if organized sign stealing with any sophistication is going on organizationally and pieces leave the organization to become competitors that it hasn't been even more exposed. That suggests like some sort of MLB masturbation, where they're all doing it, no one talks about it, but woe be those who get caught. It also suggests it's the sort of scandal that could nut punch entire league unto hurting the most important thing of all, TV contracts.

[noxiousdog]

This is now a bigger scandal than a decade of steroids.

It should be, shouldn't it?

Not in my opinion. It really doesn't make much sense. Sign stealing is a allowed. Using a camera isn't because of some nebulous theory about technology... even though it's obvious multiple clubs are doing it. Of course some technology is ok. Just not in real time, except when it is.

I do understand it's against the rules, and it should have some form of punishment. It seems a bit over the top to me though considering there's not actually any proof it hurt/helped. Contrast that to the proven harm done to health, careers, and the record book from steroids.

Unless you accept some variation of cheating is trying. Steriods were personal decisions. The forms of sign stealing discussed are systemic. Not just an arrangement between a few guys. What makes it exceptionally hard to swallow is that if organized sign stealing with any sophistication is going on organizationally and pieces leave the organization to become competitors that it hasn't been even more exposed. That suggests like some sort of MLB masturbation, where they're all doing it, no one talks about it, but woe be those who get caught. It also suggests it's the sort of scandal that could nut punch entire league unto hurting the most important thing of all, TV contracts.

MLB has always been about cheating and will always be about cheating. They put known cheaters (Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford, Don Sutton) in the hall of fame. When people are caught, like Greg Nettles bat full of superballs, they get a wink and a nod. Except when they don't. Seems kind of arbitrary.

[LordMortis]

MLB has always been about cheating and will always be about cheating.

That's a hard sell to bring in the next generation's dollars and putting their kids in sandlots fantasizing about being pro ball players, which is what MLB is trying to do.

[noxiousdog]

MLB has always been about cheating and will always be about cheating.

That's a hard sell to bring in the next generation's dollars and putting their kids in sandlots fantasizing about being pro ball players, which is what MLB is trying to do.

Color me skeptical when none of the players involved were even inconvenienced.

[ImLawBoy]

I think it's a fair bit of hyperbole to call this a bigger scandal than steroids at this point. It's current impact is limited to four people - none of whom are current players. The impact on the actual games being played is unknown (and perhaps unknowable), but appears to be much less significant than the impact from steroids. A number of players tainted by steroids, including arguably the best hitter and pitcher of the era, are effectively locked out of the Hall of Fame by the scandal. At most you have some impact on Beltran's candidacy from this one, but I suspect voters will treat it more like spitballers than steroid users. The penalties are pretty harsh, but that's because the commissioner's office specifically warned organizations of tough penalties if this occurred, yet the Astros kept doing it.

Now, if the investigations continue and a bunch more teams are implicated, that could change things. This has the potential to be on par with the steroid scandal. Right now, though, it's not even close.

[LordMortis]

Color me skeptical when none of the players involved were even inconvenienced.

Now, if the investigations continue and a bunch more teams are implicated, that could change things. This has the potential to be on par with the steroid scandal. Right now, though, it's not even close.

I thought that was where ND was going and what Manfred appears to be trying to dance away from (or that is the story fake news is selling)

Well, now all the wrongdoers have been fully punished. All set!

[ImLawBoy]

On the may be getting bigger front:

Marc Farzetta
‏Verified account @MarcFarzetta

You'll be seeing this a lot.

Jose Altuve signaling to his teammates NOT to rip off his jersey in celebration because it would "allegedly" reveal a buzzer that would go off when triggered by someone on the Astros video team.

Next Level Cheating.

[Scuzz]

Yea, with the play that video is getting you are going to see this get even bigger. If it comes out that Altuve and other Astros were wearing a "wire" I think MLB will have to discipline some players in some fashion or at least explain why they haven't. The shit has yet to hit the fan.

And ESPN is reporting the Astros are looking at Buck Showalter as manager.

[El Guapo]

Is there a source for that beyond just the video clip? Wondering where the buzzer idea is coming from.

[LawBeefaroni]

Is there a source for that beyond just the video clip? Wondering where the buzzer idea is coming from.

Rumor and speculation. Trevor Bauer and someone on Twitter claiming to be Beltran's niece.

Now every photo with a wrinkle on an Astros Jersey is evidence.


Not saying they didn't use buzzers but haven't seen anything rock solid yet.

[Hrothgar]

Is there a source for that beyond just the video clip? Wondering where the buzzer idea is coming from.

Someone claiming to be either Altuve's or Beltran's niece using twitter handle @S0_blessed1. The account is now private and the tweet deleted.



None of this was mentioned in the commissioners report. I don't know why the players wouldn't admit it if they were given immunity. Still wouldn't entirely surprise me at this point.

[LawBeefaroni]

None of this was mentioned in the commissioners report. I don't know why the players wouldn't admit it if they were given immunity. Still wouldn't entirely surprise me at this point.

Because listening to trashcans banging or watching baserunners is one thing. Wearing an electronic device is next level shit. And they could have been wired directly into the video booth. At that point, nothing is off the table.

[El Guapo]

Is there a source for that beyond just the video clip? Wondering where the buzzer idea is coming from.

Rumor and speculation. Trevor Bauer and someone on Twitter claiming to be Beltran's niece.

Now every photo with a wrinkle on an Astros Jersey is evidence.


Not saying they didn't use buzzers but haven't seen anything rock solid yet.

Evidently the Beltran family has denied that the account is from Beltran's niece, FWIW.

[Lorini]

If they can prove the players wore something then they should be penalized.

[Hrothgar]

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
Reach out to Scott Boras about his client Jose Altuve: “When this came up today, Jose Altuve immediately contacted me and this is his statement: ‘I have never worn an electronic device in my performance as a major league player.’”

[stessier]

The idea that wearing a wire is somehow worse than what we already know is kind of ridiculous to me.

[Lorini]

The idea that wearing a wire is somehow worse than what we already know is kind of ridiculous to me.

MLB is claiming that they can't figure out who did what. Wearing a buzzer means they know who did what. Not that it's worse but it identifies a specific player or players as participating, something they say they can't do as it stands. Some players are not happy that the players who were involved are not being punished, we'll see where this goes. Many fans including myself aren't happy about it either. The other problem with not identifying is that now all the players on that team are tainted, perhaps unfairly.

Boras does not appear to be the highlight of ethical behavior so I don't know about his statement. What else is he going to say, 'my client cheated?'

[LawBeefaroni]

The idea that wearing a wire is somehow worse than what we already know is kind of ridiculous to me.

MLB is claiming that they can't figure out who did what. Wearing a buzzer means they know who did what. Not that it's worse but it identifies a specific player or players as participating, something they say they can't do as it stands. Some players are not happy that the players who were involved are not being punished, we'll see where this goes. Many fans including myself aren't happy about it either. The other problem with not identifying is that now all the players on that team are tainted, perhaps unfairly.

Boras does not appear to be the highlight of ethical behavior so I don't know about his statement. What else is he going to say, 'my client cheated?'

Besides, Boras isn't saying that he knows that Altuve never cheated. He's just quoting Altuve's denial. He isn't bringing anything new to the table.

[Scuzz]

Boras represents his clients, not the truth.

[Jaymann]

Great explanation of the sign stealing scandal by Bob Costas:

Makes you wonder though, why weren't pitchers asking, "Why do I hear a fucking trashcan banging every time I throw a breaking ball?"

[El Guapo]

Great explanation of the sign stealing scandal by Bob Costas:

Makes you wonder though, why weren't pitchers asking, "Why do I hear a fucking trashcan banging every time I throw a breaking ball?"

Well, there was one White Sox pitcher who figured out what was going on mid-AB, and changed the signs.

[Combustible Lemur]

On the may be getting bigger front:

Marc Farzetta
‏Verified account @MarcFarzetta

You'll be seeing this a lot.

Jose Altuve signaling to his teammates NOT to rip off his jersey in celebration because it would "allegedly" reveal a buzzer that would go off when triggered by someone on the Astros video team.

Next Level Cheating.

Omg the memes and responses in that thread are magnificent.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[LordMortis]

Fun fact:

As of right now, assuming Maholmes starts on 2nd, the Tigers will have drafted more starting Superbowl QBs than the Lions.

[LawBeefaroni]

As of right now, assuming Maholmes starts on 2nd,

Isn't it 1,110% certain that he's starting?

[LordMortis]

As of right now, assuming Maholmes starts on 2nd,

Isn't it 1,110% certain that he's starting?

Feces occurs. There are two weeks where in which he could "be playing Guitar Hero" and for all intents and purposes end his career.

[stessier]

He could hand off the ball and get his palm pinched and have it burst open.

[stessier]

So very dumb. I'm sure it play well to their voters, though.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/285 ... rd-dodgers

The Los Angeles City Council unanimously approved a resolution Tuesday urging Major League Baseball to strip recent World Series championships from the Houston Astros and Boston Red Sox and award them to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

[noxiousdog]

Which shows the silliness of the whole thing. The last time the Dodgers won a world series, Orel Hershiser was their top player, and of course a cheater.

“He cheats, and everybody else does,” Ogea said. “Why not? He showed me how to cheat, but he said I can’t do it until I’m about 35. So if I stay around that long, I get the privilege to cheat.”

And so did Jay Howell.

[Lorini]

So very dumb. I'm sure it play well to their voters, though.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/285 ... rd-dodgers

The Los Angeles City Council unanimously approved a resolution Tuesday urging Major League Baseball to strip recent World Series championships from the Houston Astros and Boston Red Sox and award them to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

They just wanted to express their dissatisfaction. It's not like it's costing the taxpayers any money. I don't agree with them in the slightest but whatever.

[Lorini]

Which shows the silliness of the whole thing. The last time the Dodgers won a world series, Orel Hershiser was their top player, and of course a cheater.

“He cheats, and everybody else does,” Ogea said. “Why not? He showed me how to cheat, but he said I can’t do it until I’m about 35. So if I stay around that long, I get the privilege to cheat.”

And so did Jay Howell.

There's disagreement in the article that Hershiser was a cheater, geezus.

[noxiousdog]

Which shows the silliness of the whole thing. The last time the Dodgers won a world series, Orel Hershiser was their top player, and of course a cheater.

“He cheats, and everybody else does,” Ogea said. “Why not? He showed me how to cheat, but he said I can’t do it until I’m about 35. So if I stay around that long, I get the privilege to cheat.”

And so did Jay Howell.

There's disagreement in the article that Hershiser was a cheater, geezus.

Yeah well there was disagreement whether Barry Bonds was a cheater.

If the LA Times prints that a teammate says he was taught by Hershiser combined with another member of the 88 team being suspended in the playoffs, it seems pretty credible to me.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Lorini]

Not to me, sorry. I don't care who it is, you need more than hearsay for something to be factual. The Astros cheating scandal was proven by more than just one player saying something.

[noxiousdog]

Not to me, sorry. I don't care who it is, you need more than hearsay for something to be factual. The Astros cheating scandal was proven by more than just one player saying something.

Yeah, when a credible newspaper prints an interview with someone with first hand knowledge that's more than hearsay.

Jay Howell certainly is more than hearsay.

Though I do understand where you're coming from. When your team cheats you want to defend them and when someone cheats you, you fight back.

[Lorini]

Not to me, sorry. I don't care who it is, you need more than hearsay for something to be factual. The Astros cheating scandal was proven by more than just one player saying something.

Yeah, when a credible newspaper prints an interview with someone with first hand knowledge that's more than hearsay.

Jay Howell certainly is more than hearsay.

Though I do understand where you're coming from. When your team cheats you want to defend them and when someone cheats you, you fight back.

Don't demean me like that. That's such bullshit. "Credible" newspapers are trying to get eyeballs. Odd how no other paper, including the New York Times, national TV news or other news outlets for example, didn't pick up on the story. Weird. Some journalism actually cares about credibility and ONE PERSON doesn't make credibility.

[El Guapo]

Not to me, sorry. I don't care who it is, you need more than hearsay for something to be factual. The Astros cheating scandal was proven by more than just one player saying something.

Yeah, when a credible newspaper prints an interview with someone with first hand knowledge that's more than hearsay.

Jay Howell certainly is more than hearsay.

Though I do understand where you're coming from. When your team cheats you want to defend them and when someone cheats you, you fight back.

Don't demean me like that. That's such bullshit. "Credible" newspapers are trying to get eyeballs. Odd how no other paper, including the New York Times, national TV news or other news outlets for example, didn't pick up on the story. Weird. Some journalism actually cares about credibility and ONE PERSON doesn't make credibility.

I don't think that you two are that far apart. Jay Howell telling a reporter that Oral Hersheiser showed him how to cheat is certainly evidence of cheating (firsthand evidence on Howell's part), which is why the LAT reported it (along with contradictory evidence). While that's evidence, that's certainly far short of what we have for the Astros for 2017-2018 (a detailed MLB report resulting from an investigation).

Now, why didn't Howell's allegations result in an MLB investigation? Hard to say - depends a lot on random circumstances around when an allegation surfaces. There's some evidence that MLB would have really liked to have ignored the allegations against the Astros and the Red Sox, but that the way they surfaced (in particular the Athletic article) made it difficult for them to do so.

SO: (1) there's more evidence against the Astros than the Dodgers; (2) there's *some* evidence against the Dodgers (as there is I think against most teams. Assessing the comparative value of cheating amongst teams, when there is differing levels of evidence, is complicated and messy, and fan rooting bias tends to complicate that analysis further.