The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

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The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

I'm posting this in EBG, as it's really too large to just be R&P, even though it very much does cover R&P. Hopefully others think it fits here.

For anyone vaguely familiar with Tim Urban and WaitButWhy, but not so familiar as to closely follow him: he's been on a bit of a sabbatical that lasted years, and he's finally back.

For those who have no idea who he is, he's a blogger who periodically takes a topic--generally one that's not well-understood by the general populace--and does a deep-dive into the topic to help said general populace have a better understanding of the topic. Old favorites include Religion for the Nonreligious, What Makes You You, and his four-part series on Elon Musk and his companies. That last one especially could use some more reading around these parts, as Musk remains criminally under-appreciated (IMHO) despite his flaws. Any one of Urban's screeds is reason to stop what I'm doing and settle in for far too much time spent reading a post.

But I'm digressing. The point is that I find Urban's takes on just about anything he tackles to be worth the time to read. And he's back with a multi-part series, The Story of Us. It's his attempt to dig into WTF is happening with society these days, explain why we as a civilization really suck rather mightily lately, and perhaps help foster more productive discussion about the same.

In his words:
Tim Urban wrote:When I told people I was planning to write a post about society, and the way people are acting, and the way the media is acting, and the way the government is acting, and the way everyone else is acting, people kept saying the same thing to me.

Don’t do it. Don’t touch it. Write about something else. Anything else. It’s just not worth it.

They were right. With so many non-controversial topics to write about, why take on something so loaded and risk alienating a ton of readers? I listened to people’s warnings, and I thought about moving on to something else, but then I was like, “Wait what? I live inside a giant and the giant is having a six-year-old meltdown in the grocery store candy section and that’s a not-okay thing for me to talk about?”

It hit me that what I really needed to write about was that—about why it’s perilous to write about society.

I ended up going with some combination of both of these things: society’s current situation and why it’s an especially bad idea for me to write about it—and how those two things are related.

I knew this would be a deep rabbit hole. Did I think I’d follow some sick-ass rabbit down a hole for three years, deep into U.S. history, world history, evolutionary psychology, political theory, and neuroscience, through dozens of books, hundreds of datasets and articles, and into literally thousands of conversations, some very pleasant and some that made me want to pull my head off and throw it into the trash? No I didn’t.

I ended up going so deep because as I read through studies and watched the news and read opinion pieces and listened to podcasts and heard people’s life stories, I kept feeling like in each case, I was only seeing a small part of what was happening. And I became obsessed with trying to wrap my head around whatever the big story was that all of these smaller stories were a part of. So I went farther and farther down the rabbit hole, trying to get in a mental helicopter and zoom out far enough to see the complete picture.

After many months of listening and learning and a torturous amount of thinking, I’m finally ready to share my ideas with you.

Sometimes, certain topics become hard to talk about because our conversations get stuck in a rut. We hear the same arguments, using the same wording, again and again, until we become numb to them. When the words we use become too loaded with historical baggage, they stop being useful for communication. That’s what I think may be going on here. We’re all a little stuck in our viewpoints about society and we don’t seem to have a way to make forward progress.

So part of what I’ve spent three years working on is a new language we can use to think and talk about our societies and the people inside of them. In typical Wait But Why form, the language is full of new terms and metaphors and, of course, lots and lots of badly drawn pictures. It all amounts to a new lens. Looking through this lens out at the world, and inward at myself, things make more sense to me now.

This is the introductory post in a series of posts that will come out throughout the next few months. In the early parts of the series, we’ll get familiar with the new lens, and as the series moves on, we’ll start using the lens to look at all of those topics a sane blogger isn’t supposed to write about. If I can do my job well, by the end of the journey, everything will make more sense to you too.

There’s a pretty worrisome trend happening in many of our societies right now, but I’m pretty sure that if we can just see it all with clear eyes, we can fix it. The Wait But Why community is full of people determined to make the future as good as it can be for as many people as possible. The goal of this series is to enhance the clarity of that community, helping us better understand ourselves and the world around us so that we can do our part in nudging the future in the right direction.
The series is being released in pieces so as not to be book-length in one post. The first four parts are out now, and I think it's now far enough along to deserve a thread here. So, have at it.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Jaymann »

And I was thinking it was a history of OO.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

Jaymann wrote:And I was thinking it was a history of OO.
In a way, it is!
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by dbt1949 »

Didn't he do one of these about how guys can't be friends with girls and not sleep with them?
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by coopasonic »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:02 pm So, have at it.
Dude you just ruined Santa Claus. I know it's not what the series is going after, but I still blame you.

I scoff at religion (dammit, this should have been in R&P) as a way to control people without doing any of the hard work. Then I think about how we use the idea of Santa Claus.

At this point I think my kids have it all worked out, but now I feel bad about it.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

I just bookmarked the series this morning for later reading. I've liked most of his work so far, especially the Musk series. Will most likely read part 1 tonight.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Freyland »

His writing about Procrastination is pretty golden too. I recommend you read it, eventually.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by EvilHomer3k »

Started reading it and it's a good read so far. Thanks for posting.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by coopasonic »

Freyland wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:23 pm His writing about Procrastination is pretty golden too. I recommend you read it, eventually.
I'll put it on the list.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

If reading about procrastination is too hard, his TED Talk about procrastination is more accessible. I'll leave linking it as an exercise for the reader to procrastinate about.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by morlac »

He is one of my favorite bloggers of all time. I read his Magnum Opus on Musk (I believe from a post on here :) ) and found it mind blowing. Not just because Musk is a modern day Davinci but because of the depth of his research, ability to get people to open up, get readers to think outside the box and most importantly his ability to explain complex things in simpleton terms. He also uses pictures! I for one can appreciate that. Seriously, though I still quote the Musk piece and love blowing people's minds explaining what the end game is for him. Not making cars but making a product he could profit off so he can invest in battery technology so he can make this, to make that, than this and that, etc. so we can get to Mars and colonize it. You can watch people's mind's get blown as they piece it all together. Thanks for linking YK, will dive into it tonight.

edit to ADD: I just actually read the quoted part from the blog. He was not on a sabbatical for 3 years, bad choice of words. That would have been a break. It sounds like he's been on a mission to figure out the Story of Us. Damn, this guy is good.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Holman »

(Caveat: I haven't read the new series yet.)

I know my view won't be popular, but there you go. I think the blog is fun but reductive.

I'm able to like WaitButWhy, but every time I read one of his big pieces on religion/ethics/human nature I come away thinking that I just got a Cliff's Notes treatment of themes that would be handled with more complexity in Anthropology 101. His approach is often mechanistic and oversimplified.

His favorite move is "what has always looked complex to everyone is actually very simple and the opposite of what it seems." That's a trick that almost always means the complexity is being ignored, not solved or understood.

His treatment of religion is especially so. It boils down essentially to a pop-Freudian and gutter-Marxist understanding of the religious imagination as (a) sublimation of instincts and (b) manipulation of the weak by the powerful or the priestly class. It obscures and rejects any of the complexity that makes religion an essential part of human experience: basically, every religious impulse in human history was a mistake that can be corrected by stick figures illustrating the simple motives underlying it.

This style makes it impossible to, for example, recognize that religion comes from the same capabilities and aspirations as art itself. You see something similar when he treats love in min-max terms that not only undervalue but strive to "correct" the ways in which fulfilling relationships are as much about imperfection as they are perfection.

(Also, I think his Elon Musk worship is pretty embarrassing.)
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll keep this short: Musk is the only billionaire who isn't accumulating wealth for power and its own sake, but rather in the service of a vision. Maybe he'll turn out to be this generation's Howard Hughes. Or maybe he'll really open Mars to human colonization and shape the future of our species. Ask again in 20 or 30 years...but he's off to an impressive start. Starship could see its first orbital flight before this year is over and, if his aspirational schedule holds, leave earth orbit by 2022. I wouldn't bet against him.

Back on topic, I like how Tim Urban's an everyman on a journey of discovery. Whether you agree with where he ends up or not, you can see how he got there, questioning as deep as he can go each step of the way.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

Yeah, I don't want to detail the thread, either, so I'll just say that describing WBW as Musk-worshipping betrays either a lack of understanding of Musk or of WBW.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Holman »

I know Musk wants to colonize Mars. That's where, as a purported genius with massive resources, he's wrong.

Colonizing Mars doesn't help anything. It's a waste. Who cares that our DNA might survive the disaster of Earth when the disaster of Earth might still be averted?

It's pointless to send humanity to the stars (or even just the nearby lifeless rocks) when humanity is suffering here. Colonization might feel like some sort of biological imperative (again, why exactly..?), but the crisis of our current environment--averting the obscene amount of real human suffering right over the horizon--is a moral imperative.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

Right, so a misunderstanding of Musk. You're suggesting a false dichotomy.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Isgrimnur »

Image
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Holman »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:00 pm Right, so a misunderstanding of Musk. You're suggesting a false dichotomy.
I’m happy to be educated. Help me see. I’ve read WBW’s Musk treatment, and it seems based more on hope and press releases than results. Am I wrong?

My sense of Musk is that he imagines himself a Heinlein hero. This isn’t Heinlein’s future by any means.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by morlac »

Holman wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:52 pm

It's pointless to send humanity to the stars
:hand:
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Holman »

morlac wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:11 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:52 pm

It's pointless to send humanity to the stars
:hand:
I’ll own that. It’s pointless because a dozen colonists in a bunker on Mars are not humanity.

Humanity is here.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

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To suggest that we not work toward colonizing elsewhere because we haven't solved all problems here is obtuse. We *are* going to have an extinction-level event here. It's only a matter of time. In fact, we pretty clearly want to test the waters this century. So working toward moving humans to multiple locations is a requirement.

Mars (and the moon) are the two realistic options for now, so they're being worked on.

Further, I'd argue that Musk's other companies are doing more than most to work toward resolving significant suffering here. A prime motivator of suffering over the next century will be the level of global warming that occurs. Tesla has indisputably moved the entire auto industry far forward of where it'd be without Tesla. Neuralink, while the ultimate goal is related to keeping up with AI and I'll grant that that's an out-there goal, is pioneering implants that will move treatment of certain brain injuries far forward of where we'd otherwise be. And SolarCity and Tesla Energy are (and will be much more in a few years) having a significant positive impact on power availability and reliability among less-developed areas.

Musk clearly tried to spend his initial fortunes in ways that could be viewed as heroic / saving toward humanity, but I've followed him incredibly closely for a decade now. He doesn't view himself as any sort of hero. He just looked at the large-scale problems humanity faced, picked some where he viewed current progress as inadequate, and started working on them.

The general 'Musk is an asshole billionaire looking to profit off the backs of the plebes' narrative that is so often prevalent in the media is wildly off the mark. He certainly can be an asshole of the regular variety (see 'pedo dude' incident, various chewing out of employees reports, etc), but his core motivations are pretty clearly good. He's also dealing with a level of pressure on a daily basis that would destroy most normal humans, all while a dedicated crew of detractors spreads misinformation and constant attacks against his projects, character, and ideas literally every second of every day. I'd snap periodically, too.

The money-as-motivation idea is pretty easily discarded on its face, as well. He started SpaceX / his involvement with Tesla with a hundred million and change. A private rocket company and an electric car company would have been close to literally the worst ways to invest that money if accumulating wealth for personal gain was the goal.

As for 'a dozen colonists in a bunker,' again, you're projecting your ignorance. Read the SpaceX WBW piece again if this is where you truly think this is heading.

I'm sure that I am coming off as over-zealous on this, but I've followed Musk, his companies, and their products at a very close level for a very long time. I have them in my daily life. I see on a daily basis how the overwhelming majority of coverage of him and his companies is just far off the mark. The dude gets amazing shit done, and I'm confident enough that he's on the right track that I spend more time than I should discussing him and his exploits on the interwebs. Frankly, I believe that we kind of need him to succeed.

And now I've fully derailed the thread. Apologies, all.

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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:30 pm And now I've fully derailed the thread. Apologies, all.
:lol: I agree with all of that, so now I don't have to say it.

Regarding Mars, the journey is as important as the destination. That is, the capabilities that we'll develop to get there, and the ones we'll have to develop once we're there, will open up the solar system and all of its resources. That ain't a Star Trek future, but I'll take The Expanse. And governments aren't going to take us there. At least, ours isn't. (I could go on, but that would be for the Space Policy thread.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Holman »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:30 pm
And now I've fully derailed the thread. Apologies, all.
I'm pretty sure I'm to blame for the derail.

APOLOGY INCOMING:

While my opinion of Musk and (sometimes) WBW differs, I shouldn't have come sliding in here to dump on other people's enthusiasms. Nothing in the thread called for that, and I'm very sorry for the tone I struck. I've had a rough few days emotionally, but that's no excuse.

Please pardon me and carry on.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Blackhawk »

If we wanted to hear our opinions echoed back at us, we'd get a voice recorder. I, at least, come to OO because people with brains will argue with me and give me counter points, and yet do so in a respectful manner. And very few threads on OO stay on their original topics. They drift all around that topic.

tl;dr - no harm done.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:50 am tl;dr - no harm done.
This.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by coopasonic »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:50 am If we wanted to hear our opinions echoed back at us, we'd get a voice recorder. I, at least, come to OO because people with brains will argue with me and give me counter points, and yet do so in a respectful manner. And very few threads on OO stay on their original topics. They drift all around that topic.

tl;dr - no harm done.
Damn, I wish you hadn't qualified that. I was all ready to argue but you had to throw in "with brains"!

One thing I will mention for Holman. He (the WaitButWhy guy, not Holman, or Blackhawk) may simplify things to a level that would embarrass an Anthropology 101 teacher, but I am never going to Anthropology 101 or Sociology 101. I skated through my philosophy classes so I could get my Comp Sci degree and learned very little along the way. He's being reductionist because presenting these topics in blog form requires significant reduction. Something is going to be missed in that. I think it is better than nothing.

The show Hamilton got me to read Chernow's biography of Alexander Hamilton and I actually learned about the founding of the United States. Something I completed avoided doing in the previous 47 years. I have no idea how my education managed to miss that little topic, but it did, at least beyond the highlights of the highlights. I bring this up because I am feeling a similar urge as a result of reading this blog. I want to know more and that wouldn't have happened without reading this first. I'm still not going to take that anthropology class, but I might find a book that isn't too dry to educate myself a little bit.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by AWS260 »

Kraken wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:29 pm I don't want to derail the thread so I'll keep this short: Musk is the only billionaire who isn't accumulating wealth for power and its own sake, but rather in the service of a vision.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by morlac »

Kraken wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:03 am
Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:30 pm And now I've fully derailed the thread. Apologies, all.
:lol: I agree with all of that, so now I don't have to say it.

Regarding Mars, the journey is as important as the destination. That is, the capabilities that we'll develop to get there, and the ones we'll have to develop once we're there, will open up the solar system and all of its resources. That ain't a Star Trek future, but I'll take The Expanse. And governments aren't going to take us there. At least, ours isn't. (I could go on, but that would be for the Space Policy thread.
So much this. To say we should not strive to explore and innovate in space because humans will be humans is absurd. As noted the innovations created to pull this off WILL have a positive influence on life on Earth as well. I have no problem with people having a negative view on Musk, I can get that. I can't fathom not trying to push the boundaries of human knowledge because we haven't solved all of humanity's problems (which problems, what order, what is the tipping point when it's ok to resume space exploration?). We never will because humans in general suck and we are absolutely "wired" this way. Life and more importantly humanity are not a Beatles song. It's a lovely dream though.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

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I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
Paul Allen.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
Paul Allen.
These are men who became philanthropists after their fortune was secure...and good on them, but they didn't make their riches in the service of a goal, at least AFAIK.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

Concur. Nothing against them (I'm a big fan of Gates especially these days), but they are not comparable to Musk in this regard.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

Back on topic, I found this WBW series a little underwhelming, assuming that part 3 is the end. I enjoy the author's perspective on things, and there are some clever ideas there, but it wasn't the payoff I anticipated after reading that it was three years in the making.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Zaxxon »

This is not the end.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

Ah, good. There was a lot of groundwork in parts 1 and 2 and not a lot of payoff in 3. It wasn't clear to me whether more is coming.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Smoove_B »

I will be tremendously disappointed if he doesn't name Ishmael as a source at some point.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by noxiousdog »

Kraken wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:52 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
Paul Allen.
These are men who became philanthropists after their fortune was secure...and good on them, but they didn't make their riches in the service of a goal, at least AFAIK.
That's very perception based.

I'd argue that Microsoft has changed the world in a more positive way than Musk could ever dream of. In fact, Musk's goals wouldn't be achievable without them.
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by Kraken »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:14 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:52 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
Paul Allen.
These are men who became philanthropists after their fortune was secure...and good on them, but they didn't make their riches in the service of a goal, at least AFAIK.
That's very perception based.

I'd argue that Microsoft has changed the world in a more positive way than Musk could ever dream of. In fact, Musk's goals wouldn't be achievable without them.
Agree that one can't know their minds. Did Gates put a computer on every desktop because he wanted to change the world or because that was his opportunity to make phat loot? Or both?
morlac
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Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by morlac »

Kraken wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:43 am
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:14 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:52 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm I'll call your Gates and raise you a Buffett.
Paul Allen.
These are men who became philanthropists after their fortune was secure...and good on them, but they didn't make their riches in the service of a goal, at least AFAIK.
That's very perception based.

I'd argue that Microsoft has changed the world in a more positive way than Musk could ever dream of. In fact, Musk's goals wouldn't be achievable without them.
Agree that one can't know their minds. Did Gates put a computer on every desktop because he wanted to change the world or because that was his opportunity to make phat loot? Or both?
I thought it was for easy accessible free porn?
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AWS260
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Location: Brooklyn

Re: The Story of Us [WaitButWhy]

Post by AWS260 »

Kraken wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:43 am Agree that one can't know their minds.
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