[Kids] Violent tantrums

[Skinypupy]

Two of my three kids are remarkably well behaved. The worst tantrums we ever get out of Little B 9.6 and Wonder Twin 5.2b are pouting on their beds or maybe a little bit of overdramatic crying.

Wonder Twin 5.2a, however, is an entirely different story. He has always been a little bit more forceful in his tantrums, but over the last couple months, they've been getting more and more violent. To the point where I'm starting to get concerned for the safety of the other kids and/or animals and/or my house and/or himself.

We just got through one where he earned a time out for throwing a full-sized iPad at his brothers head. Then kicked the dog in the face, then punched Mrs. Skinypupy twice in the face as she carried him to his room. While in his room, he proceeded to throw his action figures at the window at full force, and fling fistfuls of Legos around the room until he calmed down.

This is starting to happen at least once a day, and is always triggered by him not getting his way. We can literally watch it start to happen as soon as we say "no" about anything. His face darkens, his brows furrow, and he simply goes on the warpath by hitting, kicking, or throwing anything he can get his hands on. Usually only lasts about 10-15 minutes, and he's fine once he calms down. While in his fits, there's literally nothing we can do or say to get him to calm down. Trying to talk with him in any way simply ends up in either him screaming over us, or just punching. I get the feeling that he literally just enters a "berzerk" mode and loses control when this happens, as he a very sweet kid otherwise. Interestingly, he's never lost control like this with anyone other than us. Doesn't happen at school, church, playdates, or anywhere else...only when he's with us, and typically only either at home or in the car.

We've been trying to just chalk it up to a phase, but this afternoon was the last straw. We've come to the realization that we're probably going to need some professional help here, as I really don't know what to do. I'm very worried about him doing very real damage to someone or something. I have no idea where to start, so we've made a call to the pediatrician and to my mom (she worked with kids with behavioral disorders in elementary schools for 40+ years). Will hopefully get some advice or recommendations from either or both.

Just figured I'd see if anyone here had similar experiences and how you approached it. This is foreign territory to me, as we've never had any serious behavioral issues in our family.

This sucks.

[Holman]

That behavior sounds extreme enough to warrant taking action. Calling the pediatrician is the right move.

FWIW, I've known a couple of kids who had those same kinds of tantrums. They've since turned out fine. I don't know what steps the parents took, but I'm pretty sure they went for professional advice.

[em2nought]

You aren't going to like this, but your other two kids are Republicans.

Sorry, I wish I could help. Hardly any experience with kids whatsoever. I don't know how people can manage it.

[Blackhawk]

Making the appointment was the right move. We had a very, very brief period when my youngest was about five where he reacted comparably. We got professional input, changed a few things, and it has never been a problem since.

[dbt1949]

I am so glad I never had small children. I could not have handled it. For a bad tempered kid............violence, drugs or giving the kid away would have all been options.
Yes, I would have been a horrible parent.

[Moat_Man]

You aren't going to like this, but your other two kids are Republicans.

Sorry, I wish I could help. Hardly any experience with kids whatsoever. I don't know how people can manage it.

Can we downvote comments?

[Holman]

Sorry, I wish I could help.

Oh, look. A Republican.

[Jeff V]

Last week I picked up my son at preschool...he was in the administrator office in full tantrum. Apparently he got pissed when another kid took the toy he was playing with then kicked the teacher. My wife talked to him for a good hour afterward, and he agreed to apologise. The next day, I was late for work because it took 15 minutes of coaxing until he finally said he was sorry. The teacher patiently stood there the whole time. The administrator thanked me for the follow though, said most parents don't bother.

It's a never-ending battle though. A few months ago, I discussed with my wife...I've almost never raised my voice with my daughter and she never got under my skin the way the boy did since infancy. And the boy is mostly good and happy, he just gets carried away too easily and can be violently protective of things he thinks are his and his alone.

[Skinypupy]

You aren't going to like this, but your other two kids are Republicans.

Well, they're 5 and 9, so the intellect and maturity levels certainly fit.

[Zarathud]

Consistency. Once you figure out a plan, make sure to consistently reinforce the plan. Kids with tempers are natural boundary testers. My wife brings out her Nun Voice which is impossible for me to follow.

Remember, you're teaching them to be human.

[Kraken]

I am so glad I never had small children. I could not have handled it. For a bad tempered kid............violence, drugs or giving the kid away would have all been options.
Yes, I would have been a horrible parent.

+100.

[naednek]

Two of my three kids are remarkably well behaved. The worst tantrums we ever get out of Little B 9.6 and Wonder Twin 5.2b are pouting on their beds or maybe a little bit of overdramatic crying.

Wonder Twin 5.2a, however, is an entirely different story. He has always been a little bit more forceful in his tantrums, but over the last couple months, they've been getting more and more violent. To the point where I'm starting to get concerned for the safety of the other kids and/or animals and/or my house and/or himself.

We just got through one where he earned a time out for throwing a full-sized iPad at his brothers head. Then kicked the dog in the face, then punched Mrs. Skinypupy twice in the face as she carried him to his room. While in his room, he proceeded to throw his action figures at the window at full force, and fling fistfuls of Legos around the room until he calmed down.

This is starting to happen at least once a day, and is always triggered by him not getting his way. We can literally watch it start to happen as soon as we say "no" about anything. His face darkens, his brows furrow, and he simply goes on the warpath by hitting, kicking, or throwing anything he can get his hands on. Usually only lasts about 10-15 minutes, and he's fine once he calms down. While in his fits, there's literally nothing we can do or say to get him to calm down. Trying to talk with him in any way simply ends up in either him screaming over us, or just punching. I get the feeling that he literally just enters a "berzerk" mode and loses control when this happens, as he a very sweet kid otherwise. Interestingly, he's never lost control like this with anyone other than us. Doesn't happen at school, church, playdates, or anywhere else...only when he's with us, and typically only either at home or in the car.

We've been trying to just chalk it up to a phase, but this afternoon was the last straw. We've come to the realization that we're probably going to need some professional help here, as I really don't know what to do. I'm very worried about him doing very real damage to someone or something. I have no idea where to start, so we've made a call to the pediatrician and to my mom (she worked with kids with behavioral disorders in elementary schools for 40+ years). Will hopefully get some advice or recommendations from either or both.

Just figured I'd see if anyone here had similar experiences and how you approached it. This is foreign territory to me, as we've never had any serious behavioral issues in our family.

This sucks.

We're about 2 years ahead of you in terms of that type of behaviour... we're still dealing with it. Ethan has thrown hard toys at the tv and broken them twice. I now have a plexiglass over it. You might want to consider that...

Ethan is on all sorts of meds for his behaviour and is seeing a psychologist about once a month. I wish I could say it's helping. He's less aggressive but still can't keep control of himself, and he cusses, hits and sometimes throw. At school, he's in angel. Only had a few incidents last year with him flipping his desk over, standing up yelling I hate school, I hate my teacher, and I hate math, which is not remotely true as he loves all 3. At the time he was on prozac and it took us about a month to realize that was doing the opposite effect of what it was supposed to do. It made him rage.

He's been off that since mid march and no more issues at school.

I don't really have any answers other than seeking out professional help and being consistent with your parenting. And be on the same page as parents... Kids know who they can manipulate.

[Freyland]

To de-escalate your situation you need to escalate your time-outs.

Typically a Time-Out is supposed to be a "sit there quietly and think about what you've done". You have already told the child what he did was wrong, and he loses time and any sort of attention while he is stuck there. Obviously, your kiddo isn't going to sit there, and is fond of acting out. So, Time-Out now has to consist of one of you restraining him on your lap until he has calmed down. Yes, you will likely have to hold his arms against his chest since he likes to hit, and probably restrain his legs as well. AND YOU DON'T TALK TO HIM. You don't tell him to calm down, you don't tell him his actions are bad, you WAIT. When he finally does calm down completely, then you can have that post-time out chat.

It works. It's humane. And I tell you this as both a Pediatrician and a Dad who's first child had ballistic temper tantrums.

[em2nought]

You aren't going to like this, but your other two kids are Republicans.

Well, they're 5 and 9, so the intellect and maturity levels certainly fit.

Touché

[Paingod]

Typically a Time-Out is supposed to be a "sit there quietly and think about what you've done". You have already told the child what he did was wrong, and he loses time and any sort of attention while he is stuck there. Obviously, your kiddo isn't going to sit there, and is fond of acting out. So, Time-Out now has to consist of one of you restraining him on your lap until he has calmed down. Yes, you will likely have to hold his arms against his chest since he likes to hit, and probably restrain his legs as well. AND YOU DON'T TALK TO HIM. You don't tell him to calm down, you don't tell him his actions are bad, you WAIT. When he finally does calm down completely, then you can have that post-time out chat.

Peacefully establishing dominance and restricting extreme negative actions is something we've done in the past too. I always felt that the kid needs to know, without a doubt, that this behavior gets them nothing, and that without a doubt, you're in charge of everything.

Neither of our kids ever got as far as punching and kicking living things - but when the tantrums turned violent, we'd basically pin them in our laps until it passed. If they tried headbutting my chest, I'd hold their head. If they tried kicking, I'd hold their legs. Struggles were sometimes epic (for them), but they never -ever- won. Eventually they stopped trying to do that because it was entirely counterproductive for them.

You might also look for a factor causing a cascade of emotions at home. It's possible that something is happening elsewhere that the child is keeping pent up until they get into a safe place where they feel like they can let it out - and lash out. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but there's a possibility. Ask about things people might be doing that are making the kid sad or angry, or (I hate saying it) if anyone is doing anything to them that makes them feel mad or helpless.

[Skinypupy]

Thanks everyone for the input, it's much appreciated. We'll be looking into some options, and I'll update as things (hopefully) progress.

To de-escalate your situation you need to escalate your time-outs.

Typically a Time-Out is supposed to be a "sit there quietly and think about what you've done". You have already told the child what he did was wrong, and he loses time and any sort of attention while he is stuck there. Obviously, your kiddo isn't going to sit there, and is fond of acting out. So, Time-Out now has to consist of one of you restraining him on your lap until he has calmed down. Yes, you will likely have to hold his arms against his chest since he likes to hit, and probably restrain his legs as well. AND YOU DON'T TALK TO HIM. You don't tell him to calm down, you don't tell him his actions are bad, you WAIT. When he finally does calm down completely, then you can have that post-time out chat.

It works. It's humane. And I tell you this as both a Pediatrician and a Dad who's first child had ballistic temper tantrums.

This one is interesting to me, because we've read a number of articles that said restraining the child is the absolute worst thing you can do, and it simply wants to make them lash out even more. I'm certainly willing to give it a shot though...hell, anything is better than the current behavior.

We have started making a really big deal about the times when he chooses to de-escalate on his own. Mrs. Skinypupy told him he couldn't get dessert if he didn't eat dinner last night. We could see him start to get angry, then he backed off and was just disappointed instead. Made sure we let him know what a good choice he made, and that we were proud of him. Hoping that can help get through as well.

[Z-Corn]

In before the post where Daehawk says to spank them!

[noxiousdog]

Thanks everyone for the input, it's much appreciated. We'll be looking into some options, and I'll update as things (hopefully) progress.

To de-escalate your situation you need to escalate your time-outs.

Typically a Time-Out is supposed to be a "sit there quietly and think about what you've done". You have already told the child what he did was wrong, and he loses time and any sort of attention while he is stuck there. Obviously, your kiddo isn't going to sit there, and is fond of acting out. So, Time-Out now has to consist of one of you restraining him on your lap until he has calmed down. Yes, you will likely have to hold his arms against his chest since he likes to hit, and probably restrain his legs as well. AND YOU DON'T TALK TO HIM. You don't tell him to calm down, you don't tell him his actions are bad, you WAIT. When he finally does calm down completely, then you can have that post-time out chat.

It works. It's humane. And I tell you this as both a Pediatrician and a Dad who's first child had ballistic temper tantrums.

This one is interesting to me, because we've read a number of articles that said restraining the child is the absolute worst thing you can do, and it simply wants to make them lash out even more. I'm certainly willing to give it a shot though...hell, anything is better than the current behavior.

We have started making a really big deal about the times when he chooses to de-escalate on his own. Mrs. Skinypupy told him he couldn't get dessert if he didn't eat dinner last night. We could see him start to get angry, then he backed off and was just disappointed instead. Made sure we let him know what a good choice he made, and that we were proud of him. Hoping that can help get through as well.

I would be surprised if restraining by hugs would be a bad outcome. By restraints? yes. Hugs, no. The above has worked for me as well, even into teenage years. It's very hard to be angry when you're getting a hug.

[Scuzz]

My daughters would throw tantrums but they never included anything physical, so I can't really help you. But the advice I have seen above sounds good. Kids go thru things at certain ages for awhile and then that behavior disappears only to show up again later.

[LawBeefaroni]

My 2-year-old is exactly like the OP. Furrowed brow, rage boiling up, explosion. The only difference is that he says "kick!" or "hit!" before he kicks ot hits.


Granted he's only 2 but going to try the hug thing. Mostly we've been trying to just sit him down and ignore him, while also physically keeping him sitting down. And keeping his well-meaning but strategy-wrecking sister away.

[Skinypupy]

And keeping his well-meaning but strategy-wrecking sister away.

Always a challenge. About half of his fits start with sister egging him on while we're not watching. We're addressing that behavior as well.

Freaking kids...

[Smoove_B]

I'll just toss this in the ring, because I've seen some crazy things. The biggest issue (in my experience) is that so many of the solutions offered address kids that fall into a "normal" distribution of behavior patterns. Time outs, punishment, yelling, etc... all can work for a wide variety of kids. However, in my own personal experience, if you have an inflexible/explosive child, all of these techniques are useless. The main reason (again, in my experience) is that enacting consequences, sending to time out (or enforcing a time out), trying to reason, etc.. simply do not work in the moment. The child (again, my experience) is incapable of rational thought - it's almost like dealing with a Hulked-out Bruce Banner. The best you can do is recognize the environmental situations that will likely encourage a Hulk episode, and then do what you can to minimize them. The problem is that most solutions to dealing with child behavior issues are focused on dealing with them as they're happening. In this case, you cannot; it's a fool's errand.

[Jeff V]

I'm not sure that any punitive action is going to correlate to an offending action in the mind of a 5 year old. My son is a month away from 5, and only recently has he started commenting on observations indicating development of a rational mind. When he's in full Hulk-rage mode though, nothing really gets through. After the episode last week, my wife sent him to his room and waited a good 30 minutes for the screaming to subside before she went upstairs and had a long. reasoned talk with him. Since I often need to deal with him while my wife is upstairs sleeping, he gets tossed into the back seat of the car (in the garage, not in the elements) where I periodically check to see if he's calmed down. If we are out somewhere and he has such a tantrum, he'll still get taken to the car, except then I need to stay with him and endure the screaming until he settles down.

[Lorini]

I think the pediatrician thing is a good idea. You don't mention his age? Also perhaps he's on the autism spectrum? I was very strict with my kid, he always saw consequences to his behavior. I will note though that the strictness caused him to be a risk adverse adult and too cautious so there's always a downside it seems.

[Skinypupy]

You don't mention his age?

5.2

Also perhaps he's on the autism spectrum?

That thought has occurred to us, but he doesn't show any signs outside of the explosive tantrums. I'll see what the professionals say.

He actually had his first tantrum-less day in a month yesterday. Mrs. Skinypupy is getting better about recognizing the signs, and engaging with him a little differently when she sees one might be coming. She's working hard on keeping her own cool, which has likely been a contributing factor as well. Let's face it, 5 year old twin boys are fucking exhausting, and when the tantrums come late in the day when we're already tired, neither of us was handling them very well.

[Jaymann]

By that age I had both my children addicted to video games. YMMV.

[McNutt]

Our middle son has a hotter temper than our other kids and he has been violent on occasion. We took him to a therapist to see how we could control him better. The therapist met with him (he was about 5, my son, not the therapist) and talked/played with him in a room without us present. She told us that he is perfectly normal and helped us with methods of deescalating things.

I don't know if it was a change in how we handled him or something that just mellowed over time, but his actions aren't as violent as they were. He's still the hot-tempered one in the family. That's just his personality. He's better at keeping it at a reasonable level now, which is huge.

[Blackhawk]

The one thing that I had to do around here - boys are a year and a half apart - was to make choices I knew were coming predictable for them. I knew what was likely to cause a tantrum from whoever didn't get their way, so I made sure that they knew how it was going to happen in advance.

For gaming, for instance, I had huge battles every time it was time to play and they both wanted to play the 360 or the Wii or whatever. Back then they were limited to two hours per day, exactly. I used magnets on the refrigerator, one with each of their names. When it came time for gaming, whoever's name was on top got first pick of gaming options for the first hour. They'd then move their name to the bottom. The other kid got the second hour pick. What it did was make it clear, in advance, who would be able to 'get their way' that day and who'd have to wait until hour two. Since it wasn't a surprise, it stopped causing issues.

I had a separate set of magnets for who got to pick the next meal, but used the same basic system - you pick, you switch the names.

[Freyland]

I'm curious where you are with this.

[gbasden]

To de-escalate your situation you need to escalate your time-outs.

Typically a Time-Out is supposed to be a "sit there quietly and think about what you've done". You have already told the child what he did was wrong, and he loses time and any sort of attention while he is stuck there. Obviously, your kiddo isn't going to sit there, and is fond of acting out. So, Time-Out now has to consist of one of you restraining him on your lap until he has calmed down. Yes, you will likely have to hold his arms against his chest since he likes to hit, and probably restrain his legs as well. AND YOU DON'T TALK TO HIM. You don't tell him to calm down, you don't tell him his actions are bad, you WAIT. When he finally does calm down completely, then you can have that post-time out chat.

It works. It's humane. And I tell you this as both a Pediatrician and a Dad who's first child had ballistic temper tantrums.

This is exactly what we had to do with our child before he got help. I spent a lot of time restraining him on my lap (where he would often end up falling asleep after he tantrumed out). Of course, the real solution was professional help for us. He was having significant communication issues and other problems that were beyond our abilities, but the right behavioral therapy did wonders.

[Skinypupy]

Sorry, I've sat down three times to write an update, but kept getting distracted.

Had a very interesting discussion with the Pediatrician. We explained the situation, and he asked a couple basic questions:

1. How long was he out of pre-school (a month, which is about the time thing really started getting out of control)
2. How long has it been since he started Kindergarten (a week)

His basic gist is that both of the kids have gone through some pretty massive life changes lately, and he suspected lashing out like this was a by-product of these changes. We hadn't really put two and two together, but in the space of 45 days, they went from from getting bored with the end of preschool, to a month spending every waking moment with each other, then they jumped right into Kindergarten. Add in a greater than usual amount of general life chaos (I've been travelling a ton, Mrs. Skinypupy has had multiple projects that have kept her busy, etc.), and it created a recipe for disaster

The doc did give us the contact info for a child psychologist, but asked if we might be willing to wait another week, use some de-escalation techniques (similar to things that have been discussed here), and see if this doesn't just improve on its own as they get acclimated to their new Kindergarten realty. He also recommended some new ways to have discussions with him around appropriate and inappropriate behaviors, and suggested that we verbally commit to him that we will work on being more patient and observant ourselves.

Sure enough, once these discussions happened, and once he got back into some structure, got around new kids and other people, and started being more active at school, things improved almost immediately. We've gone over a week now without a single tantrum. Where he was absolutely flying into a fit of rage before, he has now de-escalated multiple situations on his own without any sort of violence. He'll even come to me and say, "Dad, I'm really disappointed about X, but I won't hit anything."

It's been night and day, really. I completely underestimated the effect that the combination of boredom, change, and new stimulation would have on his behavior, and I think we're on a path to improvement. I do still have the psychologist's info on standby if we need it, but I'm hoping we've turned a corner.

Again, big thanks to everyone for helping me talk through it. OO is rad.

[GreenGoo]

He'll even come to me and say, "Dad, I'm really disappointed about X, but I won't hit anything."

Remember this moment the next time you're in a tough parenting situation and confidence and esteem are low.

Everyone feels like a bad parent at times. Remembering your successes helps keep despair at bay during the next challenge.

Well done, to both of you (and your wife too, obviously).

It's heartwarming, reading about your success!

[Zarathud]

This is a triumph. Huge success.

Glad you found help and it worked so quickly. Kids are weird little munchkins.

[dbt1949]

I'm glad you didn't have to shoot him.

[Freyland]

I'm glad you didn't have to shoot him.

+1

And good job on the other stuff, too.

[ImLawBoy]

Since your situation is going well, I can feel OK with derailing a bit.

Are your twins in the same kindergarten class, or did you get them in separate classrooms (if that's even an option in your school)? I've heard conflicting things about keeping them together vs. separating them, so I'm interested in real world experiences. Mine are still a year away from kindergarten, but I've started to think about it.

[Skinypupy]

Kept them together for kindergarten, but we’ll split them up next year.

[disarm]

We split our twins going into kindergarten, and I think it was great for them. Before they started school, they were very dependent on each other...usually wanted to dress the same, and always looked to each other for making decisions. Once they were separated for school, they became much more independent and eventually became two very different people. They're now getting ready to start 5th grade, and while they usually like each other's company, they are also totally content to follow their own paths.

Personally, I think it's good to split them from the start because you never have to deal with explaining why they were in the same class for kindergarten, but have to be split the next year. For our girls, they never knew being in the same class was an option, so they never questioned being apart.

[ImLawBoy]

I wonder if it's different for boy-girl twins vs. same gender twins. Mine already know that they have different identities due to physical differences. Still, I want to be sure that they can develop individual personalities.

On the other side, I've heard about benefits about twins being together relating to the academic side of things. They'll be working on the same projects, so they can consult with each other. Plus, it's easier on the parents to have to worry about the same set of projects/academics. (Admittedly, I may be overthinking this entering kindergarten.)