New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:03 pm

Yup, the former SecDef gets the nod.

Gates would lead the Boy Scouts' National Executive Board, which consists of dozens of former Scouts and business executives. The board guided the process that led to the group's decision earlier this year allowing openly gay Scouts.

As defense secretary, Gates oversaw the end of the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:59 pm

What age do kids get involved in that? He has that many years to convince me they are not a hate group. Gays aren't the only minority group they need to be more accepting of...they need to stop hating on Atheists as well.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:05 pm

Jeff V wrote:What age do kids get involved in that? He has that many years to convince me they are not a hate group. Gays aren't the only minority group they need to be more accepting of...they need to stop hating on Atheists as well.

Cub scouts around 2nd grade (7ish).

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:32 pm

Jeff V wrote:What age do kids get involved in that? He has that many years to convince me they are not a hate group. Gays aren't the only minority group they need to be more accepting of...they need to stop hating on Atheists as well.

Yeah I remember the good ol' days growing up hating on everyone. I was the first in my troop to get the Alternate Lifestyle Safety merit badge. I don't know what it is now, but in the old days it looked like the Ghostbusters symbol, but instead of a ghost it had The Village People.

The best though was during our breaks at our weekly meetings we played smear the queer, except the queer was the kid that didn't go to our church.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:48 pm

He sounds like a good candidate for the job. Hopefully he can push Scouts towards the 21st Century while maintaining its emphases on outdoor activities and community service.

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:11 pm

Hyperbolic responses aside, I agree. Scouting has its fair share of troubles (more so than many), but it has the capacity to deliver many positive ideals and skills to young men.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:38 pm

Redfive wrote:
Jeff V wrote:What age do kids get involved in that? He has that many years to convince me they are not a hate group. Gays aren't the only minority group they need to be more accepting of...they need to stop hating on Atheists as well.
Yeah I remember the good ol' days growing up hating on everyone. I was the first in my troop to get the Alternate Lifestyle Safety merit badge. I don't know what it is now, but in the old days it looked like the Ghostbusters symbol, but instead of a ghost it had The Village People.

The best though was during our breaks at our weekly meetings we played smear the queer, except the queer was the kid that didn't go to our church.

I spent probably 10 years as a scout of some kind. I don't ever remember them being anymore intolerant than any group at the time. Sure, there was the under God type stuff but I think maybe that varied by the troops sponsor, lots of churches sponsor scout troops. The Mormons are big into scouting. Those of us in scouts participated for the outings, the camping trips and for summer camp. Looking back on it there probably was at least one gay kid in my troop but nobody thought of him like that at the time. I remember little league having probably more of that stuff than scouting ever had.

Again, it probably all boiled down to the scout leaders and the sponsor.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:02 pm

I remember sneaking off to the rifle range to shoot things while everyone else was at their church service. They kept telling me attendance was required, but I always snuck away. I did remember learning useful life skills, like how to turn a common stick into a deadly shiv. For the most part, though, the camping/cabin trips were a substitute for family vacations that my family never took.

I'm hoping I can do better on all accounts teaching my son these things so others who don't share my values don't have to.

Default · Post by **Default** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:39 am

Um, you aren't supposed to let other people teach your kids values. In Scouts, we loved it when the parents participated.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:37 pm

Default wrote:Um, you aren't supposed to let other people teach your kids values. In Scouts, we loved it when the parents participated.

This was precisely the probem -- the local organization was all run by pushy parents eager to push their own demented agenda in spite of my own parent's involvement.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:41 am

Girls can now join Boy Scouts and earn Eagle Scout rank

From Cub Scout to Eagle Scout, the Boy Scouts of America will now admit girls into every level of their Scouting program.

The organization announced on Wednesday that families can sign up their sons and daughters for Cub Scouts starting in the 2018 program year. Another program, scheduled to begin in 2019, will allow older girls the opportunity to earn the coveted Eagle Scout rank.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:50 am

They now allow gay scouts, gay leaders, trans scouts, and girls.

Looks like I may have to reconsider my views on them and maybe not ignore their donation boxes anymore.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:52 am

Blackhawk wrote:They now allow gay scouts, gay leaders, trans scouts, and girls.

Looks like I may have to reconsider my views on them and maybe not ignore their donation boxes anymore.

They're going through a lot of rapid change to try and catch up to history, which they are dangerously close to being left behind by. It's almost like they weren't prepared for it, but that's not possible.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:58 am

Oh oh oh! I get that one. Because their motto is "Always be prepared!" Right?

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:16 am

I'm sure the Girl Scouts are thrilled about this.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:18 am

Because being an Eagle Scout allows you to be strongly considered to be in the Air Force, not allowing girls to be Eagle Scouts could be looked at as discriminatory from the Air Force's point of view. I think this is great and as gender barriers come down, I hope that the two groups merge and your kid can simply be a Scout.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:22 am

My daughter is in the Girl Scouts - just promoted to the Cadet level (which is equivalent to becoming a Boy Scout in 5th / 6th grade). It's been a great experience (mostly) but the skills taught and the activities they participate in have been a full 180 degrees from what I learned in the Boy Scouts. It's frustrating (for me) because there's such a huge disconnect, so I'm at least thankful that there will be an opportunity for girls that are more interested in the camping/outdoor elements that were fundamental to my experience - and that they'll be able to earn rank based on their achievements. I get that so much is dependent on the Troop and the leaders and that there are likely Girl Scout troops in America that do so much more with camping and the outdoors than what I'm seeing. I guess overall I think both groups could learn from one another in terms of expanding the skills and activities they individually engage in. I'll be very curious to see how it all unfolds.

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:27 am

Redfive wrote:I'm sure the Girl Scouts are thrilled about this.

Not really the response I expected but nonetheless, they aren't happy

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:32 am

Redfive wrote:Not really the response I expected but nonetheless, they aren't happy

"We're the BEST leadership organization in the world for girls and no one can do what we do. Diversity is our strength."
The first part seems to contradict the second.

And they don't want to lose their cookie monopoly.

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:33 am

As an Eagle Scout (I started in Cub Scouts and my Eagle Court of Honor was the day after I graduated high school) I will say that at the very least they are going to have to completely re-write the scout handbook to accommodate girls.

Of course my Eagle Court was 28 years ago (wow) so I'm sure the handbook has been through multiple rewrites already.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have made the change. I guess I'm just stating the obvious that this is a very big change.

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:19 pm

Smoove_B wrote:My daughter is in the Girl Scouts - just promoted to the Cadet level (which is equivalent to becoming a Boy Scout in 5th / 6th grade). It's been a great experience (mostly) but the skills taught and the activities they participate in have been a full 180 degrees from what I learned in the Boy Scouts. It's frustrating (for me) because there's such a huge disconnect, so I'm at least thankful that there will be an opportunity for girls that are more interested in the camping/outdoor elements that were fundamental to my experience - and that they'll be able to earn rank based on their achievements. I get that so much is dependent on the Troop and the leaders and that there are likely Girl Scout troops in America that do so much more with camping and the outdoors than what I'm seeing. I guess overall I think both groups could learn from one another in terms of expanding the skills and activities they individually engage in. I'll be very curious to see how it all unfolds.

My son is in the Baden-Powell Service Association, which is even more outdoors-focused than the Boy Scouts, as least for grade schoolers. It's great -- he's only 7 and has been on multiple camping trips with his troop, learning knots, going on hikes and building lean-tos. When I was 7, I was a Tiger Cub and our activities consisted almost entirely of arts and crafts.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:24 pm

Interesting - I had not heard of them before. The only co-ed organization I was familiar with (associated with the BSA) was the Venturing program, though I don't know anyone that actually participated. When I was in the Boy Scouts it was originally the Explorers program, but it appears that was split in 1998 to create career (Explorers) vs outdoors (Venture) focus.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:39 pm

I was in both the Boy Scouts and, earlier in my life, the Indian Guides. Both of which are most likely considered hate groups by Jeff "the Amish are evil!" V.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:01 pm

hepcat wrote:I was in both the Boy Scouts and, earlier in my life, the Indian Guides. Both of which are most likely considered hate groups by Jeff "the Amish are evil!" V.

Depends where you were guiding those Indians to, but historically it's never been anywhere good.

Default · Post by **Default** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:38 pm

There are so many women in leadership positions anyway, that this was inevitable. When l was doing Cubs, it was beneficial to let everyone participate - I just needed to know how many brothers and sisters would be there so I could have enough tool box parts so everyone could make one. Evryone took turns bringing snacks. By allowing everyone to join in, it made it easier. And the sisters would drop out after the boys crossed over to the BSA, because there was no program for girls.

I can see why you'd want families to participate, because my takeaway from my Scouting career is you can't get enough dads to participate.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:06 pm

Why not just change to Scout and be done with it. It would reduce the outrage.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm

naednek wrote:Why not just change to Scout and be done with it. It would reduce the outrage.

Apparently scouting in Canada is simply called "Scouts Canada" and in Mexico, yea, "Scouts Mexico". The local head of scouting here said yesterday he expects that US scouting will eventually follow suit.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:49 pm

What kind of parent would send their daughter to an organization that brought in an admitted pussy-grabber as a guest speaker to their annual signature event?

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:06 pm

Not sure why girls want to join the Boy Scouts as they have their own stuff. Yet they can be Cub Scouts now. When are guys going to enter the Miss America Pageant or whites be let in the Miss Black American one?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Years back someone was pressuring Hooters to hire guys as Hooters girls. The restaurants were handing out postcards of a fat, balding dude with mustache wearing short-shorts and a bikini top, asking the question "Is this really what you want?"

Daveman · Post by **Daveman** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:29 pm

There was some talk on the radio about the Eagle Scout rank in particular being valued by colleges and employers and wanting anyone to be able to pursue it... I suppose there's no equivalent in Girl Scouts, or at least not as well known?

In my experience (Cub Scout, Boy Scout up to Life rank, 2 years as a Cub parent but my son didn't get into it) scouting is a mostly educational/civic awareness program. Being boys only is a holdover from when it was created. There's nothing intrinsically "male" about it, so I have no problem making it open to all, though I doubt we'll see a complete merger of the two.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:35 pm

I never went beyond Cub Scouts, but I don't remember anything about it that was specifically geared towards boys. I'd have no problem with them removing the "boy" tag and letting go anyone do it.

It does make me wonder about the future of Girl Scouts though.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:25 pm

McNutt wrote:It does make me wonder about the future of Girl Scouts though.

I was emailed a pretty...pointed message from the President of the Girl Scouts this afternoon. As reported earlier, they are not amused.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:28 pm

Daveman wrote:There was some talk on the radio about the Eagle Scout rank in particular being valued by colleges and employers and wanting anyone to be able to pursue it... I suppose there's no equivalent in Girl Scouts, or at least not as well known?

Being an Eagle Scout has come up a few times in job interviews (at least early on in my post-college experience) and it was absolutely part of my college admission applications. "Equivalent" is hard to say, but the highest rank in Girl Scouts is the "Gold Star". I don't know all the details, but it's seemingly pretty similar both in terms of what you need in order to qualify and the type of project work that needs to be done to actually earn it.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:40 pm

Jeff V wrote:What kind of parent would send their daughter to an organization that brought in an admitted pussy-grabber as a guest speaker to their annual signature event?

Every president in our lifetimes has spoke to the Boy Scouts. So you probably have a lot of liars and guys who have cheated on their wives who have done it.

But don't blame the Scouts, blame the presidents.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:44 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Daveman wrote:There was some talk on the radio about the Eagle Scout rank in particular being valued by colleges and employers and wanting anyone to be able to pursue it... I suppose there's no equivalent in Girl Scouts, or at least not as well known?
Being an Eagle Scout has come up a few times in job interviews (at least early on in my post-college experience) and it was absolutely part of my college admission applications. "Equivalent" is hard to say, but the highest rank in Girl Scouts is the "Gold Star". I don't know all the details, but it's seemingly pretty similar both in terms of what you need in order to qualify and the type of project work that needs to be done to actually earn it.

It has been a long time since I was a scout, I don't even remember the name of my highest rank, Star or Life or something like that. But I don't remember too many things, other than some of the camping trips that I would say were male oriented. As a troop we did a project in the mountains helping to clear a meadow a couple times a year. I remember it being hard work. I am not sure how many young girls would have been ready for that, but I also remember not all the boys were ready for it.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:02 pm

I'm fairly sure it has to do with being an Eagle Scout. Maybe the Girl Scouts should pursue that or some equivalent.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:39 pm

Scuzz wrote:I remember it being hard work. I am not sure how many young girls would have been ready for that, but I also remember not all the boys were ready for it.

I've sat in on a few Eagle board of reviews - it's essentially a group interview with the eligible Scout to help ascertain whether or not they met the requirements. I'll let you in on a secret - there's actually no requirement that the Eagle Scout project must be finished (or even worked on). All that is required is that they plan something and go through the entire planning process. Essentially come up with a presentation on what they want to accomplish (the "pitch") and how they plan on doing all the work (budget, time table, sources of labor, etc...)

There was a local girl that created and help run a STEM summer day camp for young girls (I think 1st-4th grade?) in our area for her Gold Star award. My Eagle project was painting the exterior of the facility that hosted our meetings and gear. My friend's Eagle project was to create a local memorial for some historical figures from our town (he was into colonial American history) near the town hall. Anyway, there's no right or wrong project - it's really more about giving the Scout the opportunity to problem solve, manage a project and potentially lead others. I haven't seen anything to suggest the Gold Star award is any different. I do think the difference is in how well known or marketed the highest ranks are. I only know two Gold Star Girl Scouts - one I met in college, the other is my wife's cousin. I had no idea what a Gold Star Girl Scout was until I was told by the girl I met in college. But I'm guessing many more people know what an Eagle Scout is (even if they don't know exactly what it means to be one or what we have to do to get there).

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:46 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Scuzz wrote:I remember it being hard work. I am not sure how many young girls would have been ready for that, but I also remember not all the boys were ready for it.
I've sat in on a few Eagle board of reviews - it's essentially a group interview with the eligible Scout to help ascertain whether or not they met the requirements. I'll let you in on a secret - there's actually no requirement that the Eagle Scout project must be finished (or even worked on). All that is required is that they plan something and go through the entire planning process. Essentially come up with a presentation on what they want to accomplish (the "pitch") and how they plan on doing all the work (budget, time table, sources of labor, etc...)

There was a local girl that created and help run a STEM summer day camp for young girls (I think 1st-4th grade?) in our area for her Gold Star award. My Eagle project was painting the exterior of the facility that hosted our meetings and gear. My friend's Eagle project was to create a local memorial for some historical figures from our town (he was into colonial American history) near the town hall. Anyway, there's no right or wrong project - it's really more about giving the Scout the opportunity to problem solve, manage a project and potentially lead others. I haven't seen anything to suggest the Gold Star award is any different. I do think the difference is in how well known or marketed the highest ranks are. I only know two Gold Star Girl Scouts - one I met in college, the other is my wife's cousin. I had no idea what a Gold Star Girl Scout was until I was told by the girl I met in college. But I'm guessing many more people know what an Eagle Scout is (even if they don't know exactly what it means to be one or what we have to do to get there).

According to the letter of the rule, the Scout must " plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community." I suppose that technically you could give leadership and not do a project, but I would be hard pressed to pass a project that wasn't at least attempted. Have you actually done this? (And yes, I've sat on about a half-dozen Eagle BOR's.)

My thoughts on the new membership guidelines are...mixed. I'm afraid I'm a little too close to the subject matter (as an Assistant Scoutmaster, who may be a Scoutmaster before next summer...)

Default · Post by **Default** » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:24 am

I'm glad I'm retired. It was tough enough dealing with boys.