Abusive teacher caught on tape

[Jeff Jones]

I was in high school in the 70's, and the kids were just plain wild.
Were corporal punishment not allowed, the inmates would have taken over that asylum in no time flat.

I learned quickly to have deep respect for the teachers who wouldn't hesitate to take you down in a wrestling hold for mouthing off, or grab you by the collar and SLAM you up against the lockers for causing disruption at a mandatory pep rally (yep, pep rallys were required attendance), or break a yardstick across the back of your neck for sleeping in class. (I witnessed the first two amongst many others, and experienced the third example myself.)

We had corporal punishment when I was in school too. I think the problem nowadays would be kids coming back the next day with, well you know, guns and stuff.

[Zurai]

Public school teachers get paid next to nothing. $47k as a national average is hideously low, especially when you consider that counts teachers with tenure and 30+ years of experience. Entry level teaching wages are barely enough to live on. There's no excuse for abusing children as a teacher, but at the same time there's also no excuse for so dramatically underpaying one of the most important jobs in existence. You get what you pay for, for the most part.

[Remus West]

You'd have to be batshit insane to want to teach some peoples' spoiled brats for crap wages.

Crap wages? For a 10 month of the year job, they get an avg. of $46,752 according to the last stats I can google. That's certainly not great, but I'd say that's not "crap" at all, especially considering the excellent benefits.

That really really really depends on where you teach.

Well, yeah, but it's a national average. If you happen to be a teacher in Michigan, for instance (;)), the avg salary is close to $60k/yr.

Have you heard me complain about my salary? Of course the reason I teach in Michigan rather than North Carolina was entirely due to the $15K difference in starting salary each year. And the gap only widens as time goes on. As I said, it really depends on where you teach.

[cheeba]

Public school teachers get paid next to nothing. $47k as a national average is hideously low, especially when you consider that counts teachers with tenure and 30+ years of experience. Entry level teaching wages are barely enough to live on. There's no excuse for abusing children as a teacher, but at the same time there's also no excuse for so dramatically underpaying one of the most important jobs in existence. You get what you pay for, for the most part.

According to this site, the entry level wage is on average $31,753 (for 2004-2005, can't find current data).

I still think for a 10 month position, with more holiday time than the average business position, with better benefits than the average business position, with a tenure and pension, this is just fine for a 4-year degree job.

Moreover, I don't believe there's been any data linking pay to quality of teaching.

[cheeba]

Of course the reason I teach in Michigan rather than North Carolina was entirely due to the $15K difference in starting salary each year.

And not because it's... you know... North Carolina?

Anyways, I'm certainly for a review of teacher wages, but I just don't subscribe to this seemingly widespread theory that teachers are all automatically underpaid.

[Gebeker]

Public school teachers get paid next to nothing. $47k as a national average is hideously low, especially when you consider that counts teachers with tenure and 30+ years of experience. Entry level teaching wages are barely enough to live on. There's no excuse for abusing children as a teacher, but at the same time there's also no excuse for so dramatically underpaying one of the most important jobs in existence. You get what you pay for, for the most part.

According to this site, the entry level wage is on average $31,753 (for 2004-2005, can't find current data).

I still think for a 10 month position, with more holiday time than the average business position, with better benefits than the average business position, with a tenure and pension, this is just fine for a 4-year degree job.

Moreover, I don't believe there's been any data linking pay to quality of teaching.

Well, I don't think this is an acceptable salary for people that we are entrusting with the future of our country. Higher salaries tend to attract the best and the brightest, as they say. The more you pay members of any profession, the more will want to be part of that profession. With a larger pool of applicants, school systems will have more good teachers to choose from.

Increased salary for a position leads to increased competition among applicants. Increased competition among applicants leads to better people getting hired. I thought this was relatively uncontroversial.

[Austin]

with better benefits than the average business position,

I have quite a few teacher friends and the general consensuses is that the benefits are good when it's just you, adding spouse or family to the health coverage becomes prohibitively expensive. This is in NC but encompasses public schools and at least one private university.

[The Preacher]

Increased salary for a position leads to increased competition among applicants. Increased competition among applicants leads to better people getting hired. I thought this was relatively uncontroversial.

That's true of entry level perhaps. But you're (usually) discussing a unionized, tenured profession. Do you think union payscale results in increased competition?

[Zekester]

Well, I don't think this is an acceptable salary for people that we are entrusting with the future of our country.

A lot less than that is acceptable for similar positions, like babysitters and school bus drivers

[jaskerr]

with better benefits than the average business position,

I have quite a few teacher friends and the general consensuses is that the benefits are good when it's just you, adding spouse or family to the health coverage becomes prohibitively expensive. This is in NC but encompasses public schools and at least one private university.

I can vouch for this in Texas as well. When I was in between jobs last year we couldn't go without having health insurance for our then 1 year old., so we switched over to the wife's insurance. (Teacher, now 1st year librarian). Our insurance jumped to around 650-675 per month for basic health insurance for the three of us. Once we could switch over to my new employers insurance, it's now 290 per month for health, dental, and vision.

[Remus West]

Well, I don't think this is an acceptable salary for people that we are entrusting with the future of our country.

A lot less than that is acceptable for similar positions, like babysitters and school bus drivers

Do honestly belive that a bus driver or babysitter influences the future of a child as deeply as a teacher?

[Zekester]

Of course not.

But we're still underpaid for the level of responsibilty we carry.

[farley2k]

I am just kind of amazed how many people are advocating child abuse as a way to improve schools. Many seem to be saying "well it was done to me so it is good!" Well hell, years ago they didn't give immunization shots - so why do it now? Screw it why try to have any progress at all? Living in caves worked fine for millions of years!

See, the whole idea of "it worked back then" ignores the millions of other changes that have occurred in society since then. It is just as logical to say the discipline problems are caused by women working outside the home - the rise in women working outside the home goes along with the rise in discipline problems so why not?

The world is not the same so it is just silly to believe the same solutions would work.

[dbt1949]

well, look at how well lack of discipline has worked so far.

[farley2k]

well, look at how well lack of discipline has worked so far.

No look at how well lack of women staying in the home has worked so far!

[Remus West]

Of course not.

But we're still underpaid for the level of responsibilty we carry.

True. Our bus driver though at least have the option of putting a child off the bus if they act out to much. Most teachers can not put a kid out of the classroom.

[Remus West]

well, look at how well lack of discipline has worked so far.

No look at how well lack of women staying in the home has worked so far!

Actually you could very well make that argument IMO. Not women specifically but the lack of a parent (mother or father) in the home has a direct effect on the child and the rise in discipline. Children need guidance to learn expectations of respect and levels of obediance (I say levels because I think a child should be aware that there are times they need to be disobedient). Without a parent home to teach them these things they come to school not knowing how to behave and are thus paying the cost in detentions and suspensions.

[helot2000]

I still think for a 10 month position, with more holiday time than the average business position, with better benefits than the average business position, with a tenure and pension, this is just fine for a 4-year degree job.

Moreover, I don't believe there's been any data linking pay to quality of teaching.

Like most things in life, it's complicated. My wife finished her Master of Library Science degree in 2005. She was one of a only a few in her class that used her degree in public schools. The rest parlayed their degrees into better paying positions in private industry. After graduation, she paid a semester's tuition to teach for free in order to get her teaching license. With license and MLS degree in hand, she commanded the tidy sum of $34,000 a year as the librarian running a library for 1,600 middle schooler in the Twin Cities. This fall, I was looking at her finances and asked what her raise would be for 2008. She said the union had negotiated a 1% raise for this year and 1% next.

[farley2k]

I am also a bit confused about what is going to be the line in this beat the person to get obedience plan. Is it ok to give them a black-eye? How about breaking one of Timmy's fingers when he flips the teacher the bird? Probably not, so nothing which leaves bruises or breaks bones...so we want to teach kids that abuse is ok as long as it doesn't bruise. Yeah that will help the domestic violence numbers in the US.

[Kael]

If you wanted to question specifics a good place to start might be paddling for middle school kids. We used to allow it, but Im not aware of any school that still uses it (because of litagation I assume). Is that change a good or a bad thing?

[MarkIrons]

Ive been teaching for about five years in an NJ school, so take this for what its worth: I dont think that corporal punishment is neccessary, a good teacher can maintain the illusion of power over thirty other people without resorting to that. But that being said, we NEED others to support that illusion. When parents, administrators, and other adults constantly restrain teachers in other areas, it destroys the illusion, and thereby the control of the class.

Take this email I got from administration the other day about a particularly troublesome student:

If X refuses to do the assignment that you have assigned the rest of the class, provide him with an alternative activity. If he refuses to that, allow him to remain in your class as long as he is not disrupting your class nor violating any severe rules that would result in me having to remove him from class. DO NOT ESCALATE by arguing with him or forcing him to do the assignment.

Sooo, I cant make the kid do any work, I cant argue with him or try to convince him, I have to pander to what he wants to do. Ok fine. But what happens when thirty other kids decide, "Hey, why the hell do I have to do this?" Annnd thats when things fall apart IMO

[Bakhtosh]

Spanking a child as discipline, after any residual anger has worn off, is an effective, safe, and loving way to reinforce rules.

Corporal punishment, like all other serious disciplinary actions, should never be issued while you're angry because it's more likely to not be appropriate to the infraction. It should always be applied only for a serious violation of a standing rule by a child who knew what they were doing and what the punishment would be. Spanking is not a catch all punishment for every act of misbehavior.

I was spanked as a child. My mother worked as long as I can remember. I'm a well-adjusted adult with normal relationships and ethics. I never doubted my parents' love for me. In our house, a spanking always followed the same pattern: I would be told to go think about what I'd done (I didn't realize it at the time, but this gave my parents time to cool down too), then we'd sit down, talk about what happened, discuss the punishment and why it was necessary to discipline someone you love, they would adminiter the punishment, then they would tell me they love me, and send me to my room until I was ready to come out.

Demonizing people who spank their children as child molesters is irresponsible and invidious.

Are there people out there who abuse their children under the veil of discipline? Of course. There are also parents who emotionally abuse their children but never physically discipline them. There are parents who damage their childrens' psyche by being more concerned about being a friend to their kids than they are about raising kids to become responsible adults some day. A child who never receives any serious discipline will have a hard time adapting to any society where there are real consequences for inappropriate actions.

If a mother not being in the home is the answer, then we should see a statistically significant drop in discipline problems from kids who have mothers who don't work. That's not my experience.

[dbt1949]

If you come home and your children don't cringe in fear at the sight of you you're doing something wrong.
Leastways that's the way my dad thought.

[Exodor]

Demonizing people who spank their children as child molesters is irresponsible and invidious.

Did your spankings ever involve slaps to the face administered by a stranger?

I have no position on parents who choose to spank their kids.

I have a very, very strong position on teachers who slap students.


Apples and oranges.

[Zekester]

Of course not.

But we're still underpaid for the level of responsibilty we carry.

True. Our bus driver though at least have the option of putting a child off the bus if they act out to much. Most teachers can not put a kid out of the classroom.

We can only do that when the school decides to support us....which isn't very often.

[Kael]

Demonizing people who spank their children as child molesters is irresponsible and invidious.

Did your spankings ever involve slaps to the face administered by a stranger? I have no position on parents who choose to spank their kids. I have a very, very strong position on teachers who slap students.

Apples and oranges.

No, in the midst of a discussion you have to be able to discern between the moderate reactiona nd an extreme reaction. No one here is sayign that it was okay to hit that kid in the face, but that extreme should not be used as a reason to invalidate moderate approaches on the topic.

And if you think that moderate approaches will lead to some extreme incidents then... you're absolutly right. Every choice has some risk and some pain, otherwise this discussion would be simple. The question is: is there more pain allowing no physical punishment, or should some moderate physical punishment be allowed? Understanding that there are advantages and disadvanatges to both options?

If you say that just one extreme situation is to much and that we must do everything in our power to minimize the risk of one kid getting hit. Then I would ask you to consider that argument in other cases. For exampel should guns not be allowed because in some suituations bad people will abuse them? Should alcohol not be allowed because in some cases some people will abuse them? Gambling? Hidden Cameras? The Internet? Gasoline? Books?

My point is that you have to understand that no matetr the policy some will abuse it. that doesn't make the policy bad (though you should take reasonable percautions to guard against it).

[Exodor]

And if you think that moderate approaches will lead to some extreme incidents then... you're absolutly right. Every choice has some risk and some pain, otherwise this discussion would be simple. The question is: is there more pain allowing no physical punishment, or should some moderate physical punishment be allowed? Understanding that there are advantages and disadvanatges to both options?

If you say that just one extreme situation is to much and that we must do everything in our power to minimize the risk of one kid getting hit. Then I would ask you to consider that argument in other cases. For exampel should guns not be allowed because in some suituations bad people will abuse them? Should alcohol not be allowed because in some cases some people will abuse them? Gambling? Hidden Cameras? The Internet? Gasoline? Books?

My point is that you have to understand that no matetr the policy some will abuse it. that doesn't make the policy bad (though you should take reasonable percautions to guard against it).

As far as I can tell, the only person in this entire thread positing that spanking=child abuse is Farley.

[mrFal]

You'd have to be batshit insane to want to teach some peoples' spoiled brats for crap wages.

Crap wages? For a 10 month of the year job, they get an avg. of $46,752 according to the last stats I can google. That's certainly not great, but I'd say that's not "crap" at all, especially considering the excellent benefits.

That really really really depends on where you teach.

Well, yeah, but it's a national average. If you happen to be a teacher in Michigan, for instance (;)), the avg salary is close to $60k/yr.

yeah but you live in michigan

[EvilHomer3k]

I think that the lack of a parent in the home has little to do with the lack of discipline. When the woman was in the home did they do the discipline or was it more common for mom to say, "Wait until your father comes home."

My mother was a single parent for nearly all of my childhood. Each of her kids was good in school and is generally a good citizen.

Where the lack of a second parent comes into play is parents being lazy and selfish. Some parents are too lazy or too selfish to spend the time to discipline their child. Disciplining kids is tough work. It takes a lot of time and effort. It takes away from "me" time. With both parents working it makes it harder for parents to have time for themself. So they aren't spending as much time with their kids as they should be. That might be quality time or time disciplining.

My wife and I aren't perfect but we try to teach our kids how to behave and what the right thing to do is. We try to spend time with them. Our kids probably watch "too much" television and definitely have too many toys but they're generally good kids. They aren't mean to other kids and they generally listen. They'll do well in school. Unfortunately, they'll probably be bored for a while since they will likely know most of what they need to learn in kindergarten. It may cause the typical discipline problems. Unfortunately when you have 25 kids per teacher it's tough to tailor a lesson plan to each child. But hopefully their teacher will be able to give them some challenges. I suspect many of the parents here will face the same challenges with their children.

One of the problems in the school is liability. Schools are afraid of getting sued. So they let kids get away with a lot more than they should and they cater to kids who make a stink about something. Obviously schools have to have responsibility to educate all kids but, just like patent laws for 1 click ordering and 19-0, things get out of hand.

[farley2k]

As far as I can tell, the only person in this entire thread positing that spanking=child abuse is Farley.

What I find telling about people's assumptions is that if you look at all my posts I never use the word spanking so how did I say spanking=child abuse?

[Rowdy]

I am just kind of amazed how many people are advocating child abuse as a way to improve schools. Many seem to be saying "well it was done to me so it is good!" Well hell, years ago they didn't give immunization shots - so why do it now? Screw it why try to have any progress at all? Living in caves worked fine for millions of years!

See, the whole idea of "it worked back then" ignores the millions of other changes that have occurred in society since then. It is just as logical to say the discipline problems are caused by women working outside the home - the rise in women working outside the home goes along with the rise in discipline problems so why not?

The world is not the same so it is just silly to believe the same solutions would work.

People are ignoring you because of your childish troll attempts in the thread. Spanking <> Beating a child, or child abuse.

[Rowdy]

As far as I can tell, the only person in this entire thread positing that spanking=child abuse is Farley.

What I find telling about people's assumptions is that if you look at all my posts I never use the word spanking so how did I say spanking=child abuse?

On page 1 of the thread.

I am pretty sure that with most religions beating children to keep them in line is acceptable - in many even encouraged.

Which religions would those be?

Quick google of Christianity and spanking (after the more colorful pages )

...

[farley2k]

As far as I can tell, the only person in this entire thread positing that spanking=child abuse is Farley.

What I find telling about people's assumptions is that if you look at all my posts I never use the word spanking so how did I say spanking=child abuse?

On page 1 of the thread.

I am pretty sure that with most religions beating children to keep them in line is acceptable - in many even encouraged.

Which religions would those be?

Quick google of Christianity and spanking (after the more colorful pages )

...

So using the words Christianity and spanking means child abuse equals spanking? Huh?

[Austin]

As far as I can tell, the only person in this entire thread positing that spanking=child abuse is Farley.

What I find telling about people's assumptions is that if you look at all my posts I never use the word spanking so how did I say spanking=child abuse?

On page 1 of the thread.

I am pretty sure that with most religions beating children to keep them in line is acceptable - in many even encouraged.

Which religions would those be?

Quick google of Christianity and spanking (after the more colorful pages )

...

So using the words Christianity and spanking means child abuse equals spanking? Huh?

You seriously miss the connection or are you just trying to get away from your point.

You said some religions encourage beating children to keep kids in line. You went on to use a religion's encouragement of spanking to prove the point that some religions encourage beating children.

[farley2k]

People are ignoring you because of your childish troll attempts in the thread. Spanking <> Beating a child, or child abuse.

So saying beating another human being is abuse is an attempt at trolling? Again, huh?

[Exodor]

People are ignoring you because of your childish troll attempts in the thread. Spanking <> Beating a child, or child abuse.

So saying beating another human being is abuse is an attempt at trolling? Again, huh?

Given the antagonistic way you phrase it - yeah, pretty much.


And I don't even spank my kid.

[farley2k]

You seriously miss the connection or are you just trying to get away from your point.

You said some religions encourage beating children to keep kids in line. You went on to use a religion's encouragement of spanking to prove the point that some religions encourage beating children.

That is a fair point. Of course I never said it was child abuse


As I said in another reply, if anyone started a tread about how they should be able to beat their employees at Burger King to keep them in line everyone would be talking about abuse. But for some reason children are fine to beat. To me that is a real disconnect.



For the life of me I can't grasp it, I just cant. People say "children don't undertand anything else" yet they can learn to walk -which takes adults years to relearn, they can learn a whole new language - which again takes years for adults to learn, but it is children who can't understand anything but beating?

[farley2k]

People are ignoring you because of your childish troll attempts in the thread. Spanking <> Beating a child, or child abuse.

So saying beating another human being is abuse is an attempt at trolling? Again, huh?

Given the antagonistic way you phrase it - yeah, pretty much.


And I don't even spank my kid.

So beating a human being is wrong, but beating a child is ok? Then what are children?

[Exodor]

So beating a human being is wrong, but beating a child is ok? Then what are children?

Who said beating a human being is always wrong?

I can think of many instances in which I would beat or otherwise cause harm to another human being - and I'm a non-violent person. But given a choice between harm to my family and harm to someone else, well, it's not much of a choice.

If you spank a child to try to teach them not to play with firearms, or the stove, or some other larger danger - is that "wrong"?

[farley2k]

And generally speaking how is my having a different opinion than the majority trolling? Have I just fired off comments and ignored replies? Have I not engaged in discussion?