[NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

All right so I'm wrong :)

Leaving the conversation in 3, 2, 1

:oops:
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

OK, so he's not a top 250. But Namath is in and he ranks 245! Maybe when the Drew Bledsoes and Craig Morton's of the world get in, Pluckett will have his day!
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

gameoverman wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.

The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
The thing about QBs is they come in 2 distinct varieties - those with the skill to carry a team seemingly by themselves (like Brady) and those considered "game managers" for their skill in not fucking up too much and losing games rather than their innate ability to win them. Game managers can at times uncork a performance with gaudy stats, but mostly it's because a receiver broke a long one after the catch. The team-carriers do it almost weekly. Anyone who matters in the evaluation process usually knows the difference (which is why the football world was flabbergasted that Flacco got massively paid after winning the SB). HoF voters surely recognize this.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by pr0ner »

Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
When did Trent Dilfer make the Hall of Fame?
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by gameoverman »

Those varieties make sense in the modern free agency era, they don't in the previous era. If a Brady had been on a lesser team back then he'd have been on a team with a losing record. He wouldn't have carried a team anywhere. Big trades almost never happened because they cost too much in compensation. That was by design, part of the owners keeping labor costs down. So the team could not be built around a top QB via trade or free agency, which means you'd better have some awesome drafts or you were out of luck. Of course if the team did have the picks to get top rookies that meant the team had problems picking players, so that pick will probably be wasted. It was a cycle of failure.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Hrothgar »

pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
When did Trent Dilfer make the Hall of Fame?
It's the Fresno County Athletic Hall of Fame. I'm not sure, but there might be different standards.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
When did Trent Dilfer make the Hall of Fame?
Upthread someone said he did? But he didn’t. Whew.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by noxiousdog »

pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:54 pm
Phillip Rivers will wind up in the HoF before Jim Plunkett.
That's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Eli is an interesting case. Throughout his career he has been a decidedly mediocre QB (bad TD/Int ratio, a career 60% completion percentage) and his regular season record is exactly 0.500. But he has those two unexpected playoff runs. In fact, the only wins he’s ever had in the playoffs came in those two seasons. He’s the ultimate test case for how SB wins affect one’s HoF chances.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by gameoverman »

Eli Manning is a good example of someone who delivers under pressure. Not just regular season pressure, I mean high 'we're losing the Super Bowl' pressure. His brother was the exact opposite...but his brother has great stats.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Except that he completely failed to deliver under pressure in his four non-SB winning playoff appearances. I don’t know what switched for him for those two runs, but it certainly wasn’t there all the time.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by pr0ner »

noxiousdog wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 pm
pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:54 pm
Phillip Rivers will wind up in the HoF before Jim Plunkett.
That's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
Rivers is absolutely getting in. Maybe not first ballot, but he'll be in soon after he's eligible.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Scuzz »

Hrothgar wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:55 am
pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
When did Trent Dilfer make the Hall of Fame?
It's the Fresno County Athletic Hall of Fame. I'm not sure, but there might be different standards.
Yea, Dilfer is probably in that, but I don't think he is HoF worthy.

Maybe Lorenzo Neal is worthy of both. He had a great career as a full back in the NFL.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Scuzz »

gameoverman wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.

The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
I think in football that is definitely true. Look at guys like Ditka, Sayers and Butkis for example.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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Scuzz wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:14 pm
Hrothgar wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:55 am
pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm I'm back!! :D

They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
When did Trent Dilfer make the Hall of Fame?
It's the Fresno County Athletic Hall of Fame. I'm not sure, but there might be different standards.
Yea, Dilfer is probably in that, but I don't think he is HoF worthy.

Maybe Lorenzo Neal is worthy of both. He had a great career as a full back in the NFL.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Scuzz wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:15 pm I think in football that is definitely true. Look at guys like Ditka, Sayers and Butkis for example.
The Bears have the most HoF players and they don't exactly have a legacy of championship (or even post-season) success. They tend to go all in on one stud then surround him with crap. Stud is still going to be a stud, but championships this does not make.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:45 pm Except that he completely failed to deliver under pressure in his four non-SB winning playoff appearances. I don’t know what switched for him for those two runs, but it certainly wasn’t there all the time.
Eli Manning led his team to a Super Bowl victory over a Tom Brady led team...twice. Peyton Manning outplayed Rex Grossman in his best Super Bowl outing.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Suitably Ironic Moniker »

I think that Eli has a decent chance, since he does have some good stats and he almost always played behind a horrific OL. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he got “Plunketted.”
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Suitably Ironic Moniker wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:27 pm I think that Eli has a decent chance, since he does have some good stats and he almost always played behind a horrific OL. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he got “Plunketted.”
Eli Manning is #30 on the list Lorini linked above. The list that Plunkett does not even appear -- out of 250. I think Eli is a lock, with a slight chance he doesn't make it first ballot.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I would be shocked if Eli was a first ballot HoFer, although I think he’ll get in eventually. As 538 wrote about, he is decidedly average by most metrics. But he has two things in his favor: longevity and SB rings. I think those two factors make people regard Eli higher than his play necessarily warrants.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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Jeff V wrote:
gameoverman wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.

The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
The thing about QBs is they come in 2 distinct varieties - those with the skill to carry a team seemingly by themselves (like Brady) and those considered "game managers" for their skill in not fucking up too much and losing games rather than their innate ability to win them. Game managers can at times uncork a performance with gaudy stats, but mostly it's because a receiver broke a long one after the catch. The team-carriers do it almost weekly. Anyone who matters in the evaluation process usually knows the difference (which is why the football world was flabbergasted that Flacco got massively paid after winning the SB). HoF voters surely recognize this.
This is only true regarding game managers from about the mid-eighties on. Before then, most quarterbacks called their own plays /games.

Yet another way Bill Walsh revolutionized the game and the position.

If Plunkett gets in, it will be via the old timer route.

Eli probably gets in eventually, but definitely not first ballot.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by noxiousdog »

The only two reasons Eli is even in the Hall of Fame consideration is he played in New York and his last name is Manning.

If Eli is in, Joe Flacco should be in and there's nobody lining up to put Flacco in.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Pyperkub wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:29 pm Eli probably gets in eventually, but definitely not first ballot.
I can agree with that, and I agree with ND on the reasons why he will eventually get in. I wouldn't argue with the statement that Peyton Manning was the second GOAT, and for a good portion of their overlapping career, Eli came close to matching and for a while was ahead on SB wins.

Now, more importantly, who is going to be the next Bear inducted? The Bears, BTW, stopped the practice of retiring jersey numbers for HoF inductees because if they did, they would need 3-digit numbers. Kyle Long just retired, but I don't think he played enough seasons -- he had HoF talent, but injuries piled up over the past 5 years. Khalil Mack might some day...it's a matter of whether he plays enough seasons as a Bear. And for ILB's sake, I'm sure Trubinsky's best years are yet to come and will validate the sacrifices made to obtain him.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Isgrimnur »

Eli is done, so his book of accomplishments is closed.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:09 pm Eli is done, so his book of accomplishments is closed.
Amusingly, the same was said of Peyton but yet he pulled that second SB victory out of his ass when he was effectively assigned to the grave.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

Jeff V wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:27 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:09 pm Eli is done, so his book of accomplishments is closed.
Amusingly, the same was said of Peyton but yet he pulled that second SB victory out of his ass when he was effectively assigned to the grave.
Eli is not Peyton.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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When I say 'done,' I mean 'done.'

ESPN
New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning is retiring after 16 seasons and two Super Bowl MVPs.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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noxiousdog wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 pm
pr0ner wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:54 pm
Phillip Rivers will wind up in the HoF before Jim Plunkett.
That's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
I forgot about Rothlesberger. Rivers has had the 6th best career. 7th if you put Eli in.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by McNutt »

Eli isn't a lock, but he has a strong case.
#7 all time passing TDs
#7 all time passing yards
2 Super Bowl MVP trophies

Those stats are pretty compelling. However, while he was playing we never thought of him as elite. In any given season there are three or maybe four QBs that I consider elite (like Brady, Brees, Rogers) and Manning was never one of them. It would be hard for me to vote on anyone when I never considered them in the elite category for their position. I don't think I could get over that.
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Post by Isgrimnur »

All-time records just means that you were good enough to hang around for a while. It speaks to consistency, not greatness.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:17 pm All-time records just means that you were good enough to hang around for a while. It speaks to consistency, not greatness.
And the modern era. Ryan Fitzpatrick is in the top 40 in yards and TDs.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Isgrimnur »

Vinny Testaverde
15th in passing yards, more than Dan Fouts
16th in Passing TDs, above Joe Montana
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by McNutt »

If Vinny jumps 8 spots in those categories and gets two Super Bowl MVP awards, then it will mean something.

I get it, those numbers don't tell the whole story, but they do help his Super Bowl awards.

I still wouldn't vote for him.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by noxiousdog »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:23 pm Vinny Testaverde
15th in passing yards, more than Dan Fouts
16th in Passing TDs, above Joe Montana
That one stuck out to me too.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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McNutt wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:28 pm If Vinny jumps 8 spots in those categories and gets two Super Bowl MVP awards, then it will mean something.

I get it, those numbers don't tell the whole story, but they do help his Super Bowl awards.

I still wouldn't vote for him.
Also, this conversation would be completely different if David Tyree couldn't catch with his helmet. Does that really make Eli a hall of fame QB?
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by McNutt »

But he did make the catch and Eli Manning did win that Super Bowl. You can't take away the significance of his win because Tyree made a can-you-believe-that catch.

If you win two Super Bowl MVP awards you are most probably getting into Canton. Do those wins tell the whole story about Eli? Nope.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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McNutt wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:54 pm But he did make the catch and Eli Manning did win that Super Bowl. You can't take away the significance of his win because Tyree made a can-you-believe-that catch.
Yes, yes you can. We are talking about a career honor and so you take everything into account. And let's be real. Eli was MVP because they rarely, if ever, give it to a defensive player. He was not MVP because he had a good game.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Isgrimnur »

Wiki

Image

Then I guess:
  • Malcolm Smith
  • Von Miller
  • Drew Brees
  • Aaron Rodgers
  • Joe Flacco
  • Nick Foles
  • Julian Edelman
need to make sure they have their careers planned out to stick with winners.
Last edited by Isgrimnur on Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Isgrimnur »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 pm they rarely, if ever, give it to a defensive player.
Image
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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