[NFL] Possible HoF inductees
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
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OK, so he's not a top 250. But Namath is in and he ranks 245! Maybe when the Drew Bledsoes and Craig Morton's of the world get in, Pluckett will have his day!
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
The thing about QBs is they come in 2 distinct varieties - those with the skill to carry a team seemingly by themselves (like Brady) and those considered "game managers" for their skill in not fucking up too much and losing games rather than their innate ability to win them. Game managers can at times uncork a performance with gaudy stats, but mostly it's because a receiver broke a long one after the catch. The team-carriers do it almost weekly. Anyone who matters in the evaluation process usually knows the difference (which is why the football world was flabbergasted that Flacco got massively paid after winning the SB). HoF voters surely recognize this.gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.
The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
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- Lorini
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I'm back!!
They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
They clearly don't because they put Dilfer in the HoF who is a classic game manager.
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Those varieties make sense in the modern free agency era, they don't in the previous era. If a Brady had been on a lesser team back then he'd have been on a team with a losing record. He wouldn't have carried a team anywhere. Big trades almost never happened because they cost too much in compensation. That was by design, part of the owners keeping labor costs down. So the team could not be built around a top QB via trade or free agency, which means you'd better have some awesome drafts or you were out of luck. Of course if the team did have the picks to get top rookies that meant the team had problems picking players, so that pick will probably be wasted. It was a cycle of failure.
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It's the Fresno County Athletic Hall of Fame. I'm not sure, but there might be different standards.
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Upthread someone said he did? But he didn’t. Whew.
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That's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
Eli is an interesting case. Throughout his career he has been a decidedly mediocre QB (bad TD/Int ratio, a career 60% completion percentage) and his regular season record is exactly 0.500. But he has those two unexpected playoff runs. In fact, the only wins he’s ever had in the playoffs came in those two seasons. He’s the ultimate test case for how SB wins affect one’s HoF chances.
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Eli Manning is a good example of someone who delivers under pressure. Not just regular season pressure, I mean high 'we're losing the Super Bowl' pressure. His brother was the exact opposite...but his brother has great stats.
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Except that he completely failed to deliver under pressure in his four non-SB winning playoff appearances. I don’t know what switched for him for those two runs, but it certainly wasn’t there all the time.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
Rivers is absolutely getting in. Maybe not first ballot, but he'll be in soon after he's eligible.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 pmThat's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
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Yea, Dilfer is probably in that, but I don't think he is HoF worthy.
Maybe Lorenzo Neal is worthy of both. He had a great career as a full back in the NFL.
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I think in football that is definitely true. Look at guys like Ditka, Sayers and Butkis for example.gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.
The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
"'Enzo in the endzone!" Did not expect to see a Lorenzo Neal reference today.Scuzz wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:14 pmYea, Dilfer is probably in that, but I don't think he is HoF worthy.
Maybe Lorenzo Neal is worthy of both. He had a great career as a full back in the NFL.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
The Bears have the most HoF players and they don't exactly have a legacy of championship (or even post-season) success. They tend to go all in on one stud then surround him with crap. Stud is still going to be a stud, but championships this does not make.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
Eli Manning led his team to a Super Bowl victory over a Tom Brady led team...twice. Peyton Manning outplayed Rex Grossman in his best Super Bowl outing.Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:45 pm Except that he completely failed to deliver under pressure in his four non-SB winning playoff appearances. I don’t know what switched for him for those two runs, but it certainly wasn’t there all the time.
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I think that Eli has a decent chance, since he does have some good stats and he almost always played behind a horrific OL. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he got “Plunketted.”
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Eli Manning is #30 on the list Lorini linked above. The list that Plunkett does not even appear -- out of 250. I think Eli is a lock, with a slight chance he doesn't make it first ballot.Suitably Ironic Moniker wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:27 pm I think that Eli has a decent chance, since he does have some good stats and he almost always played behind a horrific OL. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he got “Plunketted.”
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I would be shocked if Eli was a first ballot HoFer, although I think he’ll get in eventually. As 538 wrote about, he is decidedly average by most metrics. But he has two things in his favor: longevity and SB rings. I think those two factors make people regard Eli higher than his play necessarily warrants.
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This is only true regarding game managers from about the mid-eighties on. Before then, most quarterbacks called their own plays /games.Jeff V wrote:The thing about QBs is they come in 2 distinct varieties - those with the skill to carry a team seemingly by themselves (like Brady) and those considered "game managers" for their skill in not fucking up too much and losing games rather than their innate ability to win them. Game managers can at times uncork a performance with gaudy stats, but mostly it's because a receiver broke a long one after the catch. The team-carriers do it almost weekly. Anyone who matters in the evaluation process usually knows the difference (which is why the football world was flabbergasted that Flacco got massively paid after winning the SB). HoF voters surely recognize this.gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.
The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
Yet another way Bill Walsh revolutionized the game and the position.
If Plunkett gets in, it will be via the old timer route.
Eli probably gets in eventually, but definitely not first ballot.
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Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
The only two reasons Eli is even in the Hall of Fame consideration is he played in New York and his last name is Manning.
If Eli is in, Joe Flacco should be in and there's nobody lining up to put Flacco in.
If Eli is in, Joe Flacco should be in and there's nobody lining up to put Flacco in.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
I can agree with that, and I agree with ND on the reasons why he will eventually get in. I wouldn't argue with the statement that Peyton Manning was the second GOAT, and for a good portion of their overlapping career, Eli came close to matching and for a while was ahead on SB wins.
Now, more importantly, who is going to be the next Bear inducted? The Bears, BTW, stopped the practice of retiring jersey numbers for HoF inductees because if they did, they would need 3-digit numbers. Kyle Long just retired, but I don't think he played enough seasons -- he had HoF talent, but injuries piled up over the past 5 years. Khalil Mack might some day...it's a matter of whether he plays enough seasons as a Bear. And for ILB's sake, I'm sure Trubinsky's best years are yet to come and will validate the sacrifices made to obtain him.
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Eli is done, so his book of accomplishments is closed.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Amusingly, the same was said of Peyton but yet he pulled that second SB victory out of his ass when he was effectively assigned to the grave.
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When I say 'done,' I mean 'done.'
ESPN
ESPN
New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning is retiring after 16 seasons and two Super Bowl MVPs.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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I forgot about Rothlesberger. Rivers has had the 6th best career. 7th if you put Eli in.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 pmThat's true, but I don't think Rivers gets in. This generation is Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers (maybe?, some of the luster is coming off Rodgers). I don't think you get in being the 5th best of your generation.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Eli isn't a lock, but he has a strong case.
#7 all time passing TDs
#7 all time passing yards
2 Super Bowl MVP trophies
Those stats are pretty compelling. However, while he was playing we never thought of him as elite. In any given season there are three or maybe four QBs that I consider elite (like Brady, Brees, Rogers) and Manning was never one of them. It would be hard for me to vote on anyone when I never considered them in the elite category for their position. I don't think I could get over that.
#7 all time passing TDs
#7 all time passing yards
2 Super Bowl MVP trophies
Those stats are pretty compelling. However, while he was playing we never thought of him as elite. In any given season there are three or maybe four QBs that I consider elite (like Brady, Brees, Rogers) and Manning was never one of them. It would be hard for me to vote on anyone when I never considered them in the elite category for their position. I don't think I could get over that.
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All-time records just means that you were good enough to hang around for a while. It speaks to consistency, not greatness.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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And the modern era. Ryan Fitzpatrick is in the top 40 in yards and TDs.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
Vinny Testaverde
15th in passing yards, more than Dan Fouts
16th in Passing TDs, above Joe Montana
15th in passing yards, more than Dan Fouts
16th in Passing TDs, above Joe Montana
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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If Vinny jumps 8 spots in those categories and gets two Super Bowl MVP awards, then it will mean something.
I get it, those numbers don't tell the whole story, but they do help his Super Bowl awards.
I still wouldn't vote for him.
I get it, those numbers don't tell the whole story, but they do help his Super Bowl awards.
I still wouldn't vote for him.
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That one stuck out to me too.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Also, this conversation would be completely different if David Tyree couldn't catch with his helmet. Does that really make Eli a hall of fame QB?
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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But he did make the catch and Eli Manning did win that Super Bowl. You can't take away the significance of his win because Tyree made a can-you-believe-that catch.
If you win two Super Bowl MVP awards you are most probably getting into Canton. Do those wins tell the whole story about Eli? Nope.
If you win two Super Bowl MVP awards you are most probably getting into Canton. Do those wins tell the whole story about Eli? Nope.
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Yes, yes you can. We are talking about a career honor and so you take everything into account. And let's be real. Eli was MVP because they rarely, if ever, give it to a defensive player. He was not MVP because he had a good game.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees
Wiki
Then I guess:
Then I guess:
- Malcolm Smith
- Von Miller
- Drew Brees
- Aaron Rodgers
- Joe Flacco
- Nick Foles
- Julian Edelman
Last edited by Isgrimnur on Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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