[NFL] Possible HoF inductees

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KePoW
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Post by KePoW »

Eightball wrote:Not 100%, but they're the most easily quantifiable comparative. I mean an impact player will get his stats, right? You can't impact a game as a wide receiver if you don't get touchdowns, or catches, or yards, right?
sure, that's true. but I think there's a reason why none of the major sports' HoFs do their inductions based on an automatic tally of players' stats. because there's a human side and impact to judging how great a player is, and that's how it will always be. but as Steron says, people get upset because there are no 'set criteria'. well...some things are just meant to be felt out and judged upon by humans, like it or not

let's take another case, with Jim Brown. as of now, he's #8 on the all-time rushing yardage list (very soon to be #9, with Marshall Faulk less than 50 yards behind). now granted, that's pretty high up in a general sense. however, consider the fact that the *vast* majority of analysts, voters, players, and coaches still consider him to be the best running back in the history of the NFL, bar none

why is that? a non-football person just looking at the stats couldn't come to that conclusion. but the people who actually saw him play, can
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Post by Eightball »

KePoW wrote:why is that? a non-football person just looking at the stats couldn't come to that conclusion. but the people who actually saw him play, can
Uh there are a lot of examples you could have used to illustrate your point, and it's one I agree to, to some extent, but Jim Brown is a bad example to use. I don't just look at one thing (rushing yards for him), I look at all the stats he produced.

He actually HAS the stats to back it up. Played 9 years, in 12 and 14 game seasons, and wracked up sickening stats.

118 games played, 12312 yards rushing (that's over 100 yards per game played, on average!). 126 total TDs (over 1 per game...). 5.2 yards per carry for his career.

Led the league in rushing 5 of his 9 years. 6 of 9 years was 1st or 2nd in total yards from scrimmage. ProBowl EVERY year he was in the league.

Compared to Marshall Faulk, who is right behind him in yards?

Faulk has 10 more TDs, but has played in 58 more games....4.3 yards per carry, never was higher than 5th in rushing yards in the league during any season, was 1st or 2nd in total yards 4 times in his 12 seasons, etc.

Brown blows him away overall. Yeah, Faulks about to pass him, but he's played almost 4 more modern day seasons :)

Better examples out there than him, kepow. Bad, bad kepow!
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Post by KePoW »

yeah, if you're gonna get into stats like how many seasons leading the league in yards, yards per game, and number of pro-bowls, etc, then Brown was definitely sick

however, I'm pretty sure Monk wasn't *anywhere* near as impressive to that extent in categories like that (correct me if I'm wrong). from earlier in the thread, you just looked at his total number of receiving yards and number of receptions. whereas with Brown, you're saying you don't look at his rushing yardage total. so what's the difference?

<edit> on a side note, I'm surprised Brown didn't lead the league in rushing more than 5 out of 9 years. any ideas who the leaders were in the other years?
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Post by Exodor »

Freezer-TPF- wrote:Erm, Aikman's numbers are over 12 seasons as opposed to DeBerg's 21 seasons (or if you want to go by games, 165 games vs 207). And that does not include Aikman's postseason stats (Or DeBerg's postseason stats, which are minimal light). I don't doubt that DeBerg is a nice guy, though, and he gets props for longevity.

Aikman's personal passing stats are not gaudy, but they are solid. You also have to factor in wins/postseason as well, which I think are probably more important than raw passing yards. Any starting QB who wins 3 SB's almost certainly deserves to be in the Hall, as long as the rest of their resume is solid.
K - how about we compare Aikman and Kerry Collins?

Collins only has 11 seasons to Aikman's 12.

Image

Image


Aikman has fewer INTs and thus a higher QB rating, but otherwise Kerry Collins has very simliar numbers in one fewer season. Give Collins a full year in '98 and his numbers are even better. Do any of Aikman's seasons jump out as HOF caliber? They all look solid but unspectacular to me.

Is Kerry Collins a HOFer?


The only thing Aikman has going for him is postseason success - and how much of that success was a result of Aikman rather than him being lucky enough to play for the most dominant team of the time?

See: rm9's endless debates about Tom Brady.
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Post by GungHo »

RE: Aikman v Collins

Aikman has both a significantly higher completion % and an avg of almost .5 yard more. That's significant. It's like comparing a RB who avgs 3.5 yards/rush to one who avgs 4.0. That's the difference between your average run of the mill back, and a guy who is a Pro Bowler. And 6% difference in completion % is huge. HUGE.

But as others have been saying, there is more to HoF selection that mere numbers. You can look at Aikman's leadership, poise under pressure, and his 'big-game mentality'(he was over 75% on his completion rate in his 3 SBs with a TD:INT of 5:1). With football in particular, we arent talking about just a whole lotta games, so when a guy comes up absolutely huge in a SB(or 3) they has to carry some significant weight in the discussion, IMO. I mean those 3 SBs alone accounted for almost 2% of Aikman's entire career. And when you add in solid, but I agree NOT spectacular, #s beside that he belongs.

I know he played on the best team, with the best line, the best RB...fine. But I dont think you plug in a Steve DeBerg on that team and win 3 SBs. Aikman's accuracy was a huge reason why that offense worked well, and w/o that it wouldnt have been nearly as successful. Most defenses that played those Dallas teams would put 8 in the box to help against Smith, double team Irvin, and play man on whatever spare the Boys were running out there at the other WR position. The fact that Irvin and AIkman both have such good #s is a testament to Irvin's ability to push off, err get open :) , and AIkman's accuracy. Neither is the player they were w/o the other, IMO and neither were the Cowboys the dominant team they were.

EDIT: as for Brady, both RM9 and others(including myself) have said that Brady is this generation's Aikman. He's exceedingly accurate, plays huge in the big games, and is the unquestioned leader of his team(while Aikman was certainly a leader, there were others on those Cowboy teams that were leaders as well...but when Aikman got in your face, you knew who the boss was). IMO, that's enough to put Brady in the HoF, too. Assuming, of course, that he ends his career with similar #s to what he's been putting up through the first 5-6 years of his career. No question he would belong.
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Post by noxiousdog »

Not that I don't think Aikman is borderline, but Farve, Aikman, and Brady both have a career 61% accuracy to go with 7 y/attempt.

Comperables are Steve Young with a 64 / 8, Manning 64 / 8, Montana 63 / 7.5.

Marino is worse than all of them at 59 / 7.
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Post by Exodor »

FWIW, I think Aikman is a HOFer - but it's very interesting to compare his numbers to other run-of-the-mill QBs.

Some QBs have little to do with their team's success other than not losing games (see: Trent Dilfer and the Superbowl Ravens). Aikman's regular season numbers are unspectacular, but I don't think there's too much debate about his HOF status.

I just thought I'd take rm9's challenge and run with it. :wink:
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Post by Eightball »

KePoW wrote:however, I'm pretty sure Monk wasn't *anywhere* near as impressive to that extent in categories like that (correct me if I'm wrong). from earlier in the thread, you just looked at his total number of receiving yards and number of receptions. whereas with Brown, you're saying you don't look at his rushing yardage total. so what's the difference?
I'm not claiming Art Monk was the greatest RB ever. That's the difference :). Just one of the greatest. Certainly more worthy than Swann, to use your own example against you :)

Monk was 1st, 2nd or 3rd in receptions 3 years during his career. He also played with some seriously poor quarterbacks, and legit 2nd and 3rd receivers, and still got stats.

I mean, he had to compete with Gary Clark (10856 yards...) and Ricky Sanders (6543 yards) for yards & catches. One year, all 3 had 1000 yards receiving. All were serious ball players.

Michael Irvin, as a comparison, had...Alvin Harper (3473 yards). No big surprise Irvin got thrown to a lot. There wasn't anyone else (besides Novacek, who had 4630 yards) to throw it to :).

Monk got all his yards and catches with serious ball competition. But even with all that receiving talent, he STILL got the ball...a lot. That's impressive...imho.
KePoW wrote:on a side note, I'm surprised Brown didn't lead the league in rushing more than 5 out of 9 years. any ideas who the leaders were in the other years?

Well, in 1962, it was Jim Taylor. I don't have the info for rushing leaders prior to 1960, so 1957, 1958, 1959 I don't know who led the league. I'd hazard a guess that Brown led the league in 1958 and 1959, though. In 1958 he had 1527 yards (in a 12 game schedule......), and in 1959 he had 1329 (also a 12 game schedule).

He's freaking unbelievable.
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Post by Eightball »

GungHo wrote:EDIT: as for Brady, both RM9 and others(including myself) have said that Brady is this generation's Aikman. He's exceedingly accurate, plays huge in the big games, and is the unquestioned leader of his team
If you look at his career to this point, he's much closer to Montana than Aikman.

Brady in 5 full seasons: 62% Completion, 18035 yards, 123 TDs, 66 INTs.

Montana in his first 5: 62% Completion, 17371 yards, 117 TDs, 58 INTs.

Of course Montana had more talent surrounding him, both on the line and at the skill positions (Jerry Rice & Tim Dwight at that point), and 2 1000 yard rushers in Wendell Tyler & Roger Craig.

Brady's never thrown for 30 TDs, Montana only threw for 30 TDs or more once (31, the year Jerry Rice caught 22 TD passes....).
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Post by KePoW »

Eightball wrote:I'm not claiming Art Monk was the greatest RB ever. That's the difference :). Just one of the greatest. Certainly more worthy than Swann, to use your own example against you :)
oh definitely, no doubt. Swann being in the HoF is a ridiculous sham, that's why I brought him up =P

my personal opinion is that both Monk and Irvin are borderline candidates (with Swann not even deserving consideration). I was just saying that the longtime official human voters maybe look at deeper things than us armchair fans can see

can anyone on here explain and defend Swann's induction?
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Post by Eightball »

KePoW wrote:my personal opinion is that both Monk and Irvin are borderline candidates (with Swann not even deserving consideration). I was just saying that the longtime official human voters maybe look at deeper things than us armchair fans can see
Maybe Swann was "feared" :wink:
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Post by Freezer-TPF- »

Eightball wrote:
KePoW wrote:my personal opinion is that both Monk and Irvin are borderline candidates (with Swann not even deserving consideration). I was just saying that the longtime official human voters maybe look at deeper things than us armchair fans can see
Maybe Swann was "feared" :wink:
I can't defend Swann's induction, but I think a probable explanation is that he made a lot of pretty catches on TV in an era where not every game was televised. That's my guess, since I don't have any actual background info on televised football during that time to support it. But I am positing that a large portion of the games that were on TV and that people watched during those years were Steelers games, and Swann provided a lot of highlights during those games.
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Post by The Preacher »

KePoW wrote:can anyone on here explain and defend Swann's induction?
Dr. Z:
Lynn Swann: Here we go. His detractors will point to his relatively low career numbers, especially compared to the 100-catch seasons of today. I'll raise my little hand and mention how great he was when the stakes were highest. In the past it has gone down to the wire with him, when only a yea or nay vote was needed -- for god's sake, give the guy a break -- and still there were people who shot him down. You have to guard against ripping these folks, because then they'll get even with you by dinging your man. I feel that sooner or later Swann will make it. I just hope it's sooner.
Page 2 extolls the virtue of Swanny in the HOF (in a discussion of Stallworth's eligibility)


Pro Football Weekly article on the topic.
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Post by Eightball »

I'll raise my little hand and mention how great he was when the stakes were highest.
And I hope he raises his hand for Deion Branch, whenever his eligibility comes. I mean 21 catches in 2 Superbowls! He came up big in the biggest games!

And I hope you (and they) campaign hard for Robert Horry for the Pro Basketball Hall of Fame. Sure Big Shot Bob never carried a team on his back for a whole season...but he was great when the stakes were highest!!!
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Post by Kelric »

Eightball wrote:
I'll raise my little hand and mention how great he was when the stakes were highest.
And I hope he raises his hand for Deion Branch, whenever his eligibility comes. I mean 21 catches in 2 Superbowls! He came up big in the biggest games!
Hey, if he does it for 15 more years. ;)

(Yeah, right.)
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Post by Eightball »

Kelric wrote:
Eightball wrote:
I'll raise my little hand and mention how great he was when the stakes were highest.
And I hope he raises his hand for Deion Branch, whenever his eligibility comes. I mean 21 catches in 2 Superbowls! He came up big in the biggest games!
Hey, if he does it for 15 more years. ;)

(Yeah, right.)
Actually, no. Swann only played 8.5 seasons. Branch only has 4 more to go, and then he'll be a hall of fame lock. CAME UP BIG IN THE BIG GAMES!!!

Doesn't matter Branch has never had a 1000 yard season. Neither had Swann.

Looking good so far!!!
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Post by The Preacher »

Do you have an exclamation mark quota to hit before you can pass the bar?

;)
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Post by Eightball »

The Preacher wrote:Do you have an exclamation mark quota to hit before you can pass the bar?

;)
But you can't express CAME UP BIG IN BIG GAMES without the !!!!1!!!.
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Post by Rincewind »

Seriously, this "Art Monk at the expense of all other inductees" thing is getting really old from Redskins fans. Goddamnit I hate living in this city during the football season.
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Post by GuidoTKP »

Eightball wrote:
I'll raise my little hand and mention how great he was when the stakes were highest.
And I hope he raises his hand for Deion Branch, whenever his eligibility comes. I mean 21 catches in 2 Superbowls! He came up big in the biggest games!

And I hope you (and they) campaign hard for Robert Horry for the Pro Basketball Hall of Fame. Sure Big Shot Bob never carried a team on his back for a whole season...but he was great when the stakes were highest!!!
I'd vote for Big Shot Bob for the Basketball HoF. Best X Factor playoff basketball has ever seen.

And dogging on Swannie's numbers is retarded. He played for a Steeler team that ran almost 60% of the time (I'm beginning to wonder if there's ever been a Steeler team that didn't run nearly 60% of the time) and played closer to the transition period from heavy run to more pass. That being said, in nine seasons he was twice in the top ten for receptions (1977 & 1978), three times in the top 10 in receiving yards (1975, 1977, & 1978), three times in the top 10 for receiving TDs (same years), and twice in the top 10 for total TDs. He averaged a robust 16.3 yards/reception over the course of his career.

Swannie got even better in the playoffs, averaging 19.3 yards/reception and scoring home runs when his Steeler team needed them. It's hard for me to think right now of a WR his made his presence felt more than Swann did in Super Bowls. Swann's in the HoF because he made bigger plays in bigger games that everybody remembers. His regular season stats certainly aren't dominating, but I think he caught a break down to the modest number of years he played and everyone's recognition of the fact that his concussion problems and playing on a run-first team.
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Post by Eightball »

Rince, I have no problems with anyone getting into the HoF that deserves it. Look at Art Monk. How can you say he doesn't deserve it, though?
GuidoTKP wrote:Swannie got even better in the playoffs, averaging 19.3 yards/reception and scoring home runs when his Steeler team needed them.
Huh. 13 Postseason Games for Swann. Only 2 games over 100 yards. 8 Touchdowns. 830 Receiving Yards.
It's hard for me to think right now of a WR his made his presence felt more than Swann did in the Super Bowl, post merger. Swann's in the HoF because he made bigger plays in bigger games that everybody remembers.


Hmm. I guess it was easy to forget about Jerry Rice. You see the world through yellow-tinted glasses I suppose.

Lynn Swann had his greatest games in 2 of the 3 superbowls he played in. 1975, 4 Catches, 161 Yards, 1 TD. 1978, 7 Catches, 124 Yards, 1 TD. 1979 Superbowl, 5 Catches, 79 Yards, 1 TD. So his two best "big game" performances add up to 11 catches, 285 Yards, 2 TDs.

Jerry Rice. Postseason, 151 Catches, 2245 Yards, 22 TDs. 1988 Superbowl, 11 Catches, 215 yards, 1 TD. 1989 Superbowl, 7 catches, 148 Yards, 3 TDs. 1994 Superbowl 10 Catches, 149 Yards, 3 TDs. 2002 Superbowl, 5 Catches, 77 Yards, 1 TD. Rice's two best "big game" performances are 17 Catches, 297 Yards, 6 TDs. A wee bit better....

Rice had a similar postseason career to Swanns 13 games...in those 3 Superbowls.

Just for kicks, let's look at Deion Branch. 2 Superbowls. 2003 Superbowl, 10 Catches, 143 Yards, 1 TD. 2004 Superbowl, 11 Catches, 133 yards. 21 Catches, 276 Yards, 1 TD.

Not that different from Swann's performance...

His regular season stats certainly aren't dominating, but I think he caught a break down to the modest number of years he played and everyone's recognition of the fact that his concussion problems and playing on a run-first team.
Terrell Davis won't make the HoF according to Dr. Z and others because of the injury problems he had. Run-first team...well...interesting, because last time I checked, Joe Gibbs liked to run the ball a little, too...(most of his teams were 1st to 3rd in rushing attempts every season)... :wink:
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Post by RunningMn9 »

KePoW wrote:however, consider the fact that the *vast* majority of analysts, voters, players, and coaches still consider him to be the best running back in the history of the NFL, bar none
For what it's worth, it's probably not as vast as you think. In many cases, people will tell you that the best pure runner they've ever seen is OJ Simpson. Best pure runner != best running back though.

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Post by GuidoTKP »

Eight, you raise a couple of interesting points worth responding to, but I only have time to address a couple.

1. Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver of all time by any measurement. I just want to get that on the table. Swann was a deserving inductee into the Hall in my opinion, but he wasn't Jerry Rice-deserving.

2. I think you picked some pretty interesting big games to compare. Swann had his big games in Super Bowls X and XIII, both against Dallas, both involving what were at least arguably the two best teams in the league when the game was played, and both were hard-fought nail biters. They are easily amongst the best Super Bowls ever played based on competativeness. Those Dallas teams weren't real easy to score points on. There was a lot of drama to go along with Swann's work.

Let's compare that to Super Bowls XXIV (49ers 55, Broncos 10) and XXIX, (49ers 49, Chargers 26) two of the most laughably lopsided Super Bowls ever conducted. Obviously Jerry can't be held accountable for the competition that made it through the AFC tourney to play him in those years, but I'm going to suggest that what were concededly statistically superior games were a little less memorable than Swann's more modest efforts, simply because they weren't good games.

But that's probably the Black and Gold tint talking, rather than that Red-colored reason you're treating me too .... :P

EDIT:

Oh, and one more thing. There are run teams, and then there are RUN teams. No question the Skins of that era liked to run, but I think there is a pretty noticeable difference at work here. Monk was in the top 10 in receiving yards for three seasons, 1984, 1985, and 1989. Swann was also in the top 10 in receiving yards for three of his seasons, 1975, 1977, and 1978.

During Monks three top-ten seasons the Skins run/pass ratio was 55/45, 53/47, and 47/53. During Swann's three top-ten seasons the Steeler's run/pass ratio was exactly the same every year: 63/37. It's pretty hard to get balls thrown your way when you run 63% of the time, particularly when you line up opposite a dude named John Stallworth.
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Post by Rincewind »

Eightball wrote:Rince, I have no problems with anyone getting into the HoF that deserves it. Look at Art Monk. How can you say he doesn't deserve it, though?
GuidoTKP wrote:Swannie got even better in the playoffs, averaging 19.3 yards/reception and scoring home runs when his Steeler team needed them.
Huh. 13 Postseason Games for Swann. Only 2 games over 100 yards. 8 Touchdowns. 830 Receiving Yards.
It's hard for me to think right now of a WR his made his presence felt more than Swann did in the Super Bowl, post merger. Swann's in the HoF because he made bigger plays in bigger games that everybody remembers.


Hmm. I guess it was easy to forget about Jerry Rice. You see the world through yellow-tinted glasses I suppose.

Lynn Swann had his greatest games in 2 of the 3 superbowls he played in. 1975, 4 Catches, 161 Yards, 1 TD. 1978, 7 Catches, 124 Yards, 1 TD. 1979 Superbowl, 5 Catches, 79 Yards, 1 TD. So his two best "big game" performances add up to 11 catches, 285 Yards, 2 TDs.

Jerry Rice. Postseason, 151 Catches, 2245 Yards, 22 TDs. 1988 Superbowl, 11 Catches, 215 yards, 1 TD. 1989 Superbowl, 7 catches, 148 Yards, 3 TDs. 1994 Superbowl 10 Catches, 149 Yards, 3 TDs. 2002 Superbowl, 5 Catches, 77 Yards, 1 TD. Rice's two best "big game" performances are 17 Catches, 297 Yards, 6 TDs. A wee bit better....

Rice had a similar postseason career to Swanns 13 games...in those 3 Superbowls.

Just for kicks, let's look at Deion Branch. 2 Superbowls. 2003 Superbowl, 10 Catches, 143 Yards, 1 TD. 2004 Superbowl, 11 Catches, 133 yards. 21 Catches, 276 Yards, 1 TD.

Not that different from Swann's performance...

His regular season stats certainly aren't dominating, but I think he caught a break down to the modest number of years he played and everyone's recognition of the fact that his concussion problems and playing on a run-first team.
Terrell Davis won't make the HoF according to Dr. Z and others because of the injury problems he had. Run-first team...well...interesting, because last time I checked, Joe Gibbs liked to run the ball a little, too...(most of his teams were 1st to 3rd in rushing attempts every season)... :wink:
I actually agree with you-based on the recent perhaps questionable caliber of WR HOF inductees, Art Monk should be in, so yeah, its not like I am really arguing with you, but we live in the same place, and listen to the same radio, etc-its really just going crazy here with the delusional sportscasters. Someone called into the Sports Machine last week and said "hey, the Seahawks have won 11 of 12, their offense is unstoppable, the defense is suprisingly good, and you guys put up 124 yards of offense last week-how in the world do you expect to win at Seattle-of course Sonny and george and all of them acted like it was the stupidest question ever-"oh god, of course we expect to win, ti was just an aberration, the offense can pick up, etc". Seriously, stick a finger down my throat and make me vomit. With a few notable exceptions (you most of the time :) ) Skins fans and sportswriters drive me crazy.
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Post by Eightball »

Rincewind wrote:With a few notable exceptions (you most of the time ) Skins fans and sportswriters drive me crazy.
It's called homerism. I get the Baltimore version, and when I lived in Dallas, I got it there, too. You'd probably hate the Titans if you lived in Tennessee...
GuidoTKP wrote:But that's probably the Black and Gold tint talking, rather than that Red-colored reason you're treating me too .... :P
:D

Burgundy and gold tinted glasses, thank you :)

Actually, Rice had a monster game against Cincinatti, in what was also a very close Superbowl (20-16, he had 11 for 215 and a TD). He produced, plain and simple, and often was the person who broke the game wide open (see the Chargers Superbowl...where he torched Stanley "The Sherriff" Richards, to open up that can of ass-whupping).

Didn't like Fifi very much, but he was a gamer. And the best on the big stage :)
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Isgrimnur »

Psychotrain wrote: Mon May 15, 2006 10:09 pm I just wish Drew Pearson and Bullet Bob Hayes would have made it in (yeah, I'm a Cowboys fan). I mean they changed the way defense played when Hayes came into the league....
GungHo wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:34 pm Of course here in Dallas fans think there's a bias against the Boys(I dont buy that one, personally), who note that game changing WRs such as Drew Pearson and especially 'Bullet' Bob Hayes have been forever excluded.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Kurth »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:23 pm
Psychotrain wrote: Mon May 15, 2006 10:09 pm I just wish Drew Pearson and Bullet Bob Hayes would have made it in (yeah, I'm a Cowboys fan). I mean they changed the way defense played when Hayes came into the league....
GungHo wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:34 pm Of course here in Dallas fans think there's a bias against the Boys(I dont buy that one, personally), who note that game changing WRs such as Drew Pearson and especially 'Bullet' Bob Hayes have been forever excluded.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Wasn't Drew Pearson the guy who blew chunks through his facemask on MNF?
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

Does anyone know why Jim Plunkett never gets the nod? Won 2 superbowls and was an MVP in one of them....
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by gameoverman »

Bob Hayes was before my time but I, unfortunately, did get to watch Drew Pearson play. Those were the years the Vikings and Cowboys would take turns booting the Rams out of the playoffs, so I remember him well. He was top notch. He caught the original Hail Mary pass, even got away with pushing off. I remember being OUTRAGED that a hated Cowboy had gotten away with that...until I realized it was in beating the hated Vikings so I was okay with it after all. I agree Drew Pearson should be in. He was consistent and dependable, a real goto receiver. I picture him having a Larry Fitzgerald type of career if he played in today's NFL.

edit:
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:35 pm Does anyone know why Jim Plunkett never gets the nod? Won 2 superbowls and was an MVP in one of them....
Any player from Al Davis's glory years probably faces an uphill battle to start with in trying to get in the HoF. Ken Stabler was a superior Raider quarterback and it took him forever to get in. Plunkett's career was kind of spotty too which doesn't help, especially since he was a top draft pick.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:35 pm Does anyone know why Jim Plunkett never gets the nod? Won 2 superbowls and was an MVP in one of them....
IIRC, those were the only years he didn't totally suck? He was certainly an odd-ball among multiple SB winners in that he didn't otherwise have a stellar career. He was closer to Joe Flacco than Tom Brady overall career-wise, not likely to get a ton of support. Body of work counts, not just a couple of games, no matter how big those games may be.

Eli Manning could well join him as the next multi-SB winner to not make it, but he had a better overall career than Plunkett.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by gameoverman »

Now that I'm thinking about it, the Raiders back then were known for taking other teams' castoffs and making something out of them. It could be that voters see Plunkett as a player who was headed nowhere until he became a Raider reclamation project.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jeff V »

gameoverman wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:53 pm Now that I'm thinking about it, the Raiders back then were known for taking other teams' castoffs and making something out of them. It could be that voters see Plunkett as a player who was headed nowhere until he became a Raider reclamation project.
I didn't pay much attention to them, but I do recall Plunkett's success was an amazing late-career resurgence after everyone considered him washed up. Because Super Bowl winning QBs include the likes of Trent Dilfer, I don't think the HoF committee puts inordinate stock on SB wins.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

Jeff V wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:16 pm
gameoverman wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:53 pm Now that I'm thinking about it, the Raiders back then were known for taking other teams' castoffs and making something out of them. It could be that voters see Plunkett as a player who was headed nowhere until he became a Raider reclamation project.
I didn't pay much attention to them, but I do recall Plunkett's success was an amazing late-career resurgence after everyone considered him washed up. Because Super Bowl winning QBs include the likes of Trent Dilfer, I don't think the HoF committee puts inordinate stock on SB wins.
I think it's a testament to who he is to not quit and keep trying. But whatever, as long as Phillip Rivers doesn't get in before him, I'm good. I realize that 'winning two games' might not be everything (and what moron thought that Dilfer deserved to be in the HoF I just don't know) but you have to have a successful post season career in my opinion to be considered a HoF QB.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Jaymann »

I hate to break it to you, but Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkenton and Warren Moon are already in.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Lorini »

Jaymann wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:30 pm I hate to break it to you, but Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkenton and Warren Moon are already in.
Those guys are fantastic and worthy QB's even without winning a superbowl, plus they went to the playoffs and Championship games way more than Rivers ever has. Dan Fouts is another superb QB, used to make sure I got tickets to Charger/Raider games when the Raiders were in LA just to see him play.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by pr0ner »

Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 am
Jeff V wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:16 pm
gameoverman wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:53 pm Now that I'm thinking about it, the Raiders back then were known for taking other teams' castoffs and making something out of them. It could be that voters see Plunkett as a player who was headed nowhere until he became a Raider reclamation project.
I didn't pay much attention to them, but I do recall Plunkett's success was an amazing late-career resurgence after everyone considered him washed up. Because Super Bowl winning QBs include the likes of Trent Dilfer, I don't think the HoF committee puts inordinate stock on SB wins.
I think it's a testament to who he is to not quit and keep trying. But whatever, as long as Phillip Rivers doesn't get in before him, I'm good. I realize that 'winning two games' might not be everything (and what moron thought that Dilfer deserved to be in the HoF I just don't know) but you have to have a successful post season career in my opinion to be considered a HoF QB.
Phillip Rivers will wind up in the HoF before Jim Plunkett.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Pyperkub »

Plunkett may well have been the first Rookie to start all of his games at qb. The patriots were awful then, and he got killed, but they were still a lot better when he was healthy.

I don't really think he should be in the pro football hall of fame, but definitely the football hall of fame (college /pro), and would have to see more of a comparison to his era. He was a great qb in college who did very well in the pros when he had something to work with and was healthy.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by Scuzz »

I was disappointed to see that local boy Tom Flores didn't make it in. He coached two SB teams, played QB and was a very early Latin-American to do both.
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Re: [NFL] Possible HoF inductees

Post by gameoverman »

My opinion, as a football fan, is that things like playoff and Super Bowl performances count for a lot when considering 'greatest ever' arguments. The Hall of Fame is different. I see that more as a recognition of accomplishments, which may or may not include postseason play. One reason is pre-free agent era, if you were stuck on a bad team too bad. There were great players who never got near the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. I think it'd be wrong to deny them a spot in the HoF for something that was beyond their control.

The flipside is a player could get lucky and wind up with a championship quality team and next thing you know he's winning a Super Bowl. Does that make him HoF material? Not necessarily in my view, what's the rest of his career look like?
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