[NFL] Possible HoF inductees

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:34 pm

The finalists

Strong, strong group. I think the shoe-ins are White, Aikman, and Monk. AFter that it gets a bit dicey. A local writer in Dallas who has a vote, says he thinks one of the 2 'Seniors nominees' will definitely get in, but he can't say who between Rayfield Wright or Madden(who is being judged solely on his coaching days, not his broadcasting).

I was amused to hear Rick Reilly of SI fame referring to Aikman as 'a noodle' however, yesterday on the Dan Patrick show on ESPN radio. And as a way to backup his argument(Im guessing...) he noted that the Cowboys who have been to 7 SBs(and won 5 of em) had 9 guys in the HoF. While the Broncos who have been to 6 SBs(and LOST 4 of em) had only one. I think his point was that there's some sort of Cowboys bias amongst the voters and that b/c of this, some other equally, if not more, deserving candidates are left out. Of course here in Dallas fans think there's a bias against the Boys(I dont buy that one, personally), who note that game changing WRs such as Drew Pearson and especially 'Bullet' Bob Hayes have been forever excluded.

I think the best question we should ask Rick is this: who on those mighty Broncos teams does he think should be in the HoF? Karl Mecklenberg? Maybe Sammy Winder or Mark Jackson? I love Reilly's writing, but damn dude.

He also didnt think Bart Starr should be in, for whatever that's worth.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:51 pm

I think that obviously Reggie White isn't even an option, of course he gets in. He changed the game.

Beyond that, I have doubts about most of the candidates (at least the ones I know).

I don't know whether the Hall has a particular bias towards individual achievement or how heavily team accomplishments color things.

Thurman Thomas and Troy Aikman present interesting situations. Troy Aikman has always struck me as a very good QB on a ridiculous team. Thurman Thomas has always struck me as a great RB on an only slightly less ridiculous team.

But Thurman has had lots of off the field problems since his retirement, and I don't know how that fits in. But at the same time, he is still the only player in NFL history that has ever lead the entire NFL in yards from scrimmage for four straight seasons. The only other player to even put three seasons in a row together was Jim Brown. I find that to be an incredible record, and one that most people overlook as far as how difficult it is to achieve. And after checking, he almost made it five straight seasons, coming in 2nd place in 1993 (although I think he was in 2nd place by like 400 yards

) to Emmitt Smith.

Even moreso when you consider that his competition was Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith.

I believe that Thurman will make it, but maybe not this year.

Just to compare with another HoF back, I chose Marcus Allen.

Marcus Allen
3022 carries for 12243 yards and 123 TDs (4.1 avg)
587 catches for 5411 yards and 21 TDs (9.2 avg)
6 time Pro Bowler
1 SB Appearance (1-0)

Playoffs (16 games):
267 carries for 1347 yards and 11 TDs
53 carries for 530 yards and 2 TDs

All Time Rankings:
Carries: 6
Rushing Yards: 10
Rushing TDs: 2
Receptions: 46
Yards from Scrimmage: 6
Rush/Receive TDs: 3

Thurman Thomas
2877 carries for 12074 yards and 65 TDs (4.2 avg)
472 catches for 4458 yards and 23 TDs (9.4 avg)
5 time Pro Bowler
4 SB Appearances (0-4)

Playoffs (21 games):
339 carries for 1442 yards and 16 TDs
76 catches for 672 yards and 5 TDs

All Time Rankings:
Carries: 11
Rushing Yards: 12
Rushing TDs: 28t
Yards from Scrimmage: 8
Rush/Receive TDs: 27t

The obvious knock here could be TDs, but the Bills had several short-yardage TD specialists that they used (Kenny Davis who scored almost 30 TDs in his 5 years in Buffalo).

In looking at that - I think the four Super Bowl appearances with Buffalo (and the fact that Thurman would have been the SB MVP had Norwood's kick been true, and even had support for the MVP award in a losing effort), and his Yards from Scrimmage record will be enough to carry him in. At some point.

In his favor is the fact that Levy, Kelly and Lofton were all first ballot HoF'ers, and Bruce Smith will be as well. Maybe he can ride the tide?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:59 pm

How come Tom Brady isn't on the list??? This is outrageous!

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:01 pm

Obviously, I think Derrick Thomas deserves it. IMO, second only to LT in terms of being able to take over a game defensively.

Reggie White - No brainer. I agree with RM9, changed the game.
Thurman Thomas
Troy Aikman

Other than those, I don't think the rest make it. But what do I know? I think Pete Rose and Joe Jackson belong in Cooperstown.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:11 pm

The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:16 pm

Steron wrote:Obviously, I think Derrick Thomas deserves it. IMO, second only to LT in terms of being able to take over a game defensively.

If I'm voting (of course I am not), I definately wouldn't have any problem with Derrick Thomas being elected. After LT, he was the most fearsome LB I can think of that I have seen. Truly able to change a game by himself. And hopefully he did it without being all coked up.

Art Monk? It's been 5 years since he's been eligible, and they haven't let him in yet. I really only saw him play at the tail end of his career though.

You know, I was going to slander Andre Reed, because I don't particularly like him - but statistically he has a pretty strong case of getting right in there too, being in the top 10 all time for receptions (4th with 951 catches), receiving yards (6th with 13198 yards) and receiving TDs (10th with 97). Not bad.

I'd still take Eric Moulds in his prime, at least he can take a mother-lovin' hit without getting T-Rex arms...

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:37 pm

noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.

Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.

Texian · Post by **Texian** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:45 pm

noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.

QFT. I always loved watching Moon play and, if given a choice, would have played him ahead of Aikman.

Aikman is just the beneficiary of all the positive press given to the Dallas teams of that era and the great supporting cast he played with.

Reggie White - absolutely deserving.
Thurman Thomas - no argument with his selection.
Moon - I hope he gets in.
Aikman - eh, not on my list. If he gets in because of those 3 SB titles and 90 wins then everyone else on those teams should get inducted, too. Got to remember, most QB's with high accuracy stats have receivers who get open, don't drop the f'ing ball and O'lines that give them time to throw. With those 3 elements, over half of all starting QB's could have 60% accuracy.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:46 pm

Art Monk, much as I love him, won't make it again this year. They'd rather vote in Michael Irvin, who just cannot stack up against Monk, but had better PR.

Michael Irvin:

750 Catches, 11904 Yards, 65 TDs.

Amongst all time? 18th in receptions, 14th in receiving yards, 35th in recieving TDs.

Art Monk

940 Catches, 12721 Yards, 68 TDs

All time? 5th Receptions, 9th Receiving Yards, 29th recieving TDs.

But Irvin will get in before Monk will.

Actually, the really fun part is that the Dallas crowd screams against an anti-Dallas Bias?

During the Joe Gibbs era, 1981-1992, played in 4 superbowls, won 3.

Joe Gibbs and John Riggins are the only Redskins of that time to be in the Hall of Fame. No one from the offensive line, or anywhere else, made it.

I guess they were just a bunch of lucky people to be winning 3 superbowls in 11 years? No talent?

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:47 pm

Kelric wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.
Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.

I guess that makes Doug Flutie Canton material too.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/doug-flutie

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. He holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds 4 of the CFL's top 5 highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991-1994, and 1996-1997).

***Edited multiple times because I suck at spelling and tagging.

Rincewind · Post by **Rincewind** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:51 pm

I think Aikman is a deserving shoo in. I think if there is any justice in the world, Warren Moon is a shoo-in. I think Thurman Thomas is less likely but probably deserving. I think it is unlikely Art Monk will make it again. Derrick Thomas also probably deserves it but you can argue his career wasn't complete. As for the veterans selections, after doing some research on Madden's coaching career, its really rather staggering how phenomenal his overall records/achievements were-I find it difficult to believe that anyone that has really looked at his record thinks he should not be a shoo in-the only knock on him I can see is the longevity one.

John Madden:
-------------+----------+
| Reg. Season | Playoffs |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| Year TM | W L T | W L |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| 1969 oak | 12 1 1 | 1 1 |
| 1970 oak | 8 4 2 | 1 1 |
| 1971 oak | 8 4 2 | 0 0 |
| 1972 oak | 10 3 1 | 0 1 |
| 1973 oak | 9 4 1 | 1 1 |
| 1974 oak | 12 2 0 | 1 1 |
| 1975 oak | 11 3 0 | 1 1 |
| 1976 oak | 13 1 0 | 3 0 |
| 1977 oak | 11 3 0 | 1 1 |
| 1978 oak | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| TOTALS | 103 32 7 | 9 7 |]

- Never had a losing season
- 2 1 loss seasons
- 1 Super bowl championship
- Highest winning percentage of any coach in NFL history for regular season
- Youngest coach to reach 100 wins
- Youngest coach in NFL during his first season (33)
- 7 AFC West Division Titles
- And there are a lot more random statistics for wins on MNF, etc etc-the novelty stats. But the point is that Madden was a dominating coach, probably hurt by the domination of the Steelers towards the end of his career. Either way, I cannot see how this man doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:53 pm

noxiousdog wrote:Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.

Be careful. You have no idea how much maturity and development Moon got from the CFL (isn't he also the #1 USFL QB of all time too), against subpar defensive competition. In other words, if he went right to the NFL, maybe he becomes Rick Mirer.

I loved Moon as a QB. I certainly wouldn't think twice about him being elected to the hall of fame. But I still think that Reggie White is the only automatic on the list.

The Preacher · Post by **The Preacher** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:55 pm

Steron wrote:
Kelric wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.
Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.
I guess that makes Doug Flutie Canton material too.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/doug-flutie

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. He holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds 4 of the CFL's top 5 highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991-1994, and 1996-1997).

Are you ignoring that Moon put up great numbers in the NFL too?

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:59 pm

The Preacher wrote:
Steron wrote:
Kelric wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.
Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.
I guess that makes Doug Flutie Canton material too.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/doug-flutie

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. He holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds 4 of the CFL's top 5 highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991-1994, and 1996-1997).
Are you ignoring that Moon put up great numbers in the NFL too?

Exactly. Moon was great in the CFL and the NFL. Flutie was great in the CFL and mediocre in the NFL (dropkick!).

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:00 pm

The Preacher wrote:
Steron wrote:
Kelric wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.
Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.
I guess that makes Doug Flutie Canton material too.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/doug-flutie

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. He holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds 4 of the CFL's top 5 highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991-1994, and 1996-1997).
Are you ignoring that Moon put up great numbers in the NFL too?

I absolutely was not. Moon put up huge numbers in the NFL. HUGE! I loved to watch him play. I wasn't arguing that at all. My point was that since it's the Pro Football HoF, Flutie put up big numbers in his pro career too. Thus he should also be derserving. No?

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:01 pm

Rincewind wrote:As for the veterans selections, after doing some research on Madden's coaching career, its really rather staggering how phenomenal his overall records/achievements were-I find it difficult to believe that anyone that has really looked at his record thinks he should not be a shoo in-the only knock on him I can see is the longevity one.

I'll be honest - I was genuinely surprised that he wasn't already in. I can definately accept that he should be in.

Instead of all the homers arguing for why people should be in, perhaps we can see some arguments on why some of these guys shouldn't?

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:04 pm

Steron wrote:
The Preacher wrote:
Steron wrote:
Kelric wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The fact that Warren Moon isn't in the shoo-in discussion is worrysome beyond belief.

Due to bias, he was forced to play in Canada where he won the Championship 5 times. Despite his late start, he's 4th on the yards list and 5th on the td's list. Before you dismiss him as a run-shoot system quarterback, he threw for 4200 yards twice with the Vikings and another 3500 with Seattle. Twice he had 30 touchdown seasons, and 5 times more than 20.

Had he been able to play NFL football from the start, he'd easily have broken all of Marino's career records.
Especially with it being the pro football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He should be in.
I guess that makes Doug Flutie Canton material too.

From http://www.answers.com/topic/doug-flutie

His career CFL statistics include 41,355 passing yards and 270 touchdowns. He holds the professional football record of 6,619 yards passing in a single season. He still holds 4 of the CFL's top 5 highest single-season completion marks, including a record 466 in 1991. His 48 touchdown passes in 1994 remains a CFL record. He earned three Grey Cup MVP awards, and was named Most Outstanding Player a record six times (1991-1994, and 1996-1997).
Are you ignoring that Moon put up great numbers in the NFL too?
I absolutely was not. Moon put up huge numbers in the NFL. HUGE! I loved to watch him play. I wasn't arguing that at all. My point was that since it's the Pro Football HoF, Flutie put up big numbers in his pro career too. Thus he should also be derserving. No?

If they want to keep it the pro HoF, why not?

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:43 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Rincewind wrote:As for the veterans selections, after doing some research on Madden's coaching career, its really rather staggering how phenomenal his overall records/achievements were-I find it difficult to believe that anyone that has really looked at his record thinks he should not be a shoo in-the only knock on him I can see is the longevity one.
I'll be honest - I was genuinely surprised that he wasn't already in. I can definately accept that he should be in.

Instead of all the homers arguing for why people should be in, perhaps we can see some arguments on why some of these guys shouldn't?

Ill take Madden:

If you look at some of the great teams over the decades, like the Steelers of the 70s, the Cowboys of the 70s, and 49ers of the 80s you see HoFers to SB wins ratios like these:

Steelers - 10:4
49ers - 3:4(including their 1990 win)
Cowboys - 7:2

But if you look at the Raiders of Madden's era you see this:

Raiders - 9(and 12 if you want to believe some of the Raider Nation that say Ray Guy, K. Stabler, and I think Lyle Alzado is the other, should all be in):1

12 HoFers and 1 SB win is not a great ratio...I mean it's not bad. Not bad at all. But if you want to say 'legendary', which IMO is what the HoF should be about, I dont think that qualifies.

For me, it's kind of like ppl who critize Mack Brown at Texas...tons of talent but hasn't done as much with that talent as maybe others would/have done. I dont think you can criticize either Brown or Madden...they have won the ultimate prize. But if Mack never wins another NC, does he go down as one of the legendary coaches of college football? No, I dont think he does. Good? Hell yes. Even great in stretches. But not legendary. I think the same can be said about Madden.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:47 am

GungHo wrote:If you look at some of the great teams over the decades, like the Steelers of the 70s, the Cowboys of the 70s, and 49ers of the 80s you see HoFers to SB wins ratios like these:

Steelers - 10:4
49ers - 3:4(including their 1990 win)
Cowboys - 7:2

Redskins- 2:3

Madden had a very talented team. Just look at the coaching records of the people that he took over and replaced him. Madden took over for someone who went 33-8-1 as the Raider head coach, and then promptly went 7-20-1 in Buffalo.

And the other part is Madden retires after a 9-7 season, and two seasons later they win a Superbowl with the legendary Tom Flores as head coach. Flores went 83-53, and won 2 superbowls with the Raiders.

And then promptly went 14-34 with the Seahawks.

It begs the question; Flores had a good record with the Raiders, and won 2 superbowls with the talent left over from the Madden years, but was proven to be a bad head coach when the talent dwindled (last 2 years in Raidersville went 13-18, then the Hawks years). Rauch had a damn good record with the Raiders, leaving Madden to coach a team coming off a 12-2 season. And then Rauch sucked in Buffalo.

So was it the talent, or was it Madden?

Madden had one of the greatest offensive lines of all time to work with. He at one point had THREE hall of fame offensive linemen on the same team (Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Jim Otto). He had a total of six different offensive linemen go to the Probowl while he coached. I know how much you appreciate o-line play, Rm9, and that's just disgusting talent...

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:04 am

Eightball wrote:
GungHo wrote:If you look at some of the great teams over the decades, like the Steelers of the 70s, the Cowboys of the 70s, and 49ers of the 80s you see HoFers to SB wins ratios like these:

Steelers - 10:4
49ers - 3:4(including their 1990 win)
Cowboys - 7:2
Redskins- 2:3

You know Ive got a mental block when it comes to the Deadskins...but excellent point, sir.

Hopefully that ratio goes up to 3:3 after Monk gets in. Would be a real shame if he doesnt.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:10 am

GungHo wrote:
Eightball wrote:
GungHo wrote:If you look at some of the great teams over the decades, like the Steelers of the 70s, the Cowboys of the 70s, and 49ers of the 80s you see HoFers to SB wins ratios like these:

Steelers - 10:4
49ers - 3:4(including their 1990 win)
Cowboys - 7:2
Redskins- 2:3

You know Ive got a mental block when it comes to the Deadskins...but excellent point, sir.

Hopefully that ratio goes up to 3:3 after Monk gets in. Would be a real shame if he doesnt.

He won't. Seriously, I've read a lot of articles from people like Peter King and Dr. Z from SI, and they both think he's not HoF worthy (but Michael Irvin is....sigh).

Another travesty is that no Redskins offensive lineman has made it into the hall of fame from that time. Seriously...the Hogs were about as famed a unit as there is in football. Tied the record for fewest sacks given up in a season. I mean...no Joe Jacoby, Jim Lachey or Russ Grimm in the HoF?

Post by **godhugh** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:14 am

Someone really needs to explain to me why Michael Irvin, of all people, is more worthy then Art Monk. I just cannot wrap my head around that one.

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:40 am

Well, Russ Grimm is one of the finalists this year, so that's nice.

And it's good to hear I'm not the only one who can't understand why Michael Irvin is revered among HoF voters.

Although I'm still not sold on Moon.

Mr. Sparkle · Post by **Mr. Sparkle** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:47 am

godhugh wrote:Someone really needs to explain to me why Michael Irvin, of all people, is more worthy then Art Monk. I just cannot wrap my head around that one.

Michael Irvin is benefitted by ESPN in this instance... I'm sure Eightball could come in with some stats that show how many big plays that Art Monk made... but the peeps think of Art Monk as a slow and steady possesion reciever who played for a long time... Irvin is percieved as a Big Play guy.

And for guys who think Aikman is mediocre, then the buck has to stop somewhere... Smith couldn't have been their entire offense, could he?

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:51 am

godhugh wrote:Someone really needs to explain to me why Michael Irvin, of all people, is more worthy then Art Monk. I just cannot wrap my head around that one.

Peter King's argument is that people didn't "fear" Art Monk going deep on you, but "feared" Michael Irvin beating you. It's the worst argument in the world; if it was true, Flipper Anderson would be the 90's Ram receiver discussed regarding the hall of fame, instead of Isaac Bruce. Monks yards per catch is a yard higher than Cris Carter, but he was "feared" also, according to King.

He also cites how Monk was only an allpro 2 times, and probowl 3 times. Of course, Aikman was never an allpro, but King considers him a lock for the hall of fame.

Post by **godhugh** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:56 am

Eightball wrote:
godhugh wrote:Someone really needs to explain to me why Michael Irvin, of all people, is more worthy then Art Monk. I just cannot wrap my head around that one.
Peter King's argument is that people didn't "fear" Art Monk going deep on you, but "feared" Michael Irvin beating you. It's the worst argument in the world; if it was true, Flipper Anderson would be the 90's Ram receiver discussed regarding the hall of fame, instead of Isaac Bruce. Monks yards per catch is a yard higher than Cris Carter, but he was "feared" also, according to King.

He also cites how Monk was only an allpro 2 times, and probowl 3 times. Of course, Aikman was never an allpro, but King considers him a lock for the hall of fame.

That's as stupid as saying Jeter should be in the HoF because he's "clutch".

How on earth do you measure a WR's "fear factor" and why would that even be a consideration?

Ugh, those kinds of statements drive me up a wall.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:02 am

godhugh wrote:How on earth do you measure a WR's "fear factor" and why would that even be a consideration?

Ugh, those kinds of statements drive me up a wall.

Welcome to the world of a Redskins fan. Monk ended his career as the all-time pass receiver, playing with some really average quarterbacks his whole career (Joey Theismann, Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien). How is that not HoF material??

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:30 am

Eightball wrote:
godhugh wrote:How on earth do you measure a WR's "fear factor" and why would that even be a consideration?

Ugh, those kinds of statements drive me up a wall.
Welcome to the world of a Redskins fan. Monk ended his career as the all-time pass receiver, playing with some really average quarterbacks his whole career (Joey Theismann, Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien). How is that not HoF material??

I am not discounting Monk's accomplishments by any means. But, when I think of great receivers in NFL history, Monk doesn't immediately come to mind. Names that come into my mind right away are (in no particular order just as I thought of them)...

Steve Largent
Jerry Rice
Tim Brown
James Lofton
Sterling (Not Shannon) Sharpe

Chris Carter
Irving Fryar
Charlie Joiner

For some reason Monk slides from people's minds. I can't explain it. I looked at his career numbers and they are definately HoF worthy, IMHO. I wouldn't have a problem with Monk making it.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:34 am

Steron wrote:For some reason Monk slides from people's minds. I can't explain it.

He was the quietest professional athlete you'd ever find. All he did was show up, play hard, and do his job for years. He wasn't a product of ESPN or the highlight shows, but he was a better receiver than many of the ones mentioned on your list. Just never received any of the hype of any of them.

When you say Shannon Sharpe, did you mean the TE, or his brother Sterling Sharpe, the WR?

KePoW · Post by **KePoW** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:36 am

first, for all you anti-Irvin people out there, are yall questioning his HoF worthiness based purely on his on the field play and statistics, or are yall saying you don't like his personality and don't think he should be considered for induction because of his off the field behavior? if you are solely saying he's not worthy because of his football play only, then fine. but if any part of your opinion is because of the off the field stuff, that's BS. it's not a consideration for the HoF, look at LT being in it

now, let's assume yall are slamming Irvin based only on his football skills and stats. do I really need to tell yall that cold statistics are by no means the only factor in how a player is judged for induction into the HoF? I only need to point out one receiver's name for you: Lynn Swann

do me a favor...go look up his stats and then tell me why Swann is in the HoF, if all you're doing is quoting Monk's stats over and over

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:39 am

Eightball wrote:
Steron wrote:For some reason Monk slides from people's minds. I can't explain it.
He was the quietest professional athlete you'd ever find. All he did was show up, play hard, and do his job for years. He wasn't a product of ESPN or the highlight shows, but he was a better receiver than many of the ones mentioned on your list. Just never received any of the hype of any of them.

When you say Shannon Sharpe, did you mean the TE, or his brother Sterling Sharpe, the WR?

Yep. I meant Sterling Sharpe.

Although Shannon probably has better numbers than many WRs.

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:41 am

KePoW wrote: I only need to point out one receiver's name for you: Lynn Swann

do me a favor...go look up his stats and then tell me why Swann is in the HoF, if all you're doing is quoting Monk's stats over and over

I agree that Swann probably doesn't deserve being in there. Stallworth had better numbers.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:46 am

Steron wrote:
KePoW wrote: I only need to point out one receiver's name for you: Lynn Swann

do me a favor...go look up his stats and then tell me why Swann is in the HoF, if all you're doing is quoting Monk's stats over and over

I agree that Swann probably doesn't deserve being in there. Stallworth had better numbers.

Namath is another. More career INTs than TDs...173 to 220. 39th in Passing Yards, 42nd in TDs.

So if Swann and Namath are in, that means it then should become the Hall of Very Good? Is that the logic you're using?

KePoW · Post by **KePoW** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:54 am

Eightball wrote:Namath is another. More career INTs than TDs...173 to 220. 39th in Passing Yards, 42nd in TDs.

So if Swann and Namath are in, that means it then should become the Hall of Very Good? Is that the logic you're using?

I certainly don't think Swann deserves to be in the HoF, or even have been considered. all I'm saying is maybe you should look beyond only the stats? it's obvious all the long time voters don't think they're the only factor

do you disagree with their philosophy? in other words, are stats a full 100% of the criteria for you?

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:59 am

KePoW wrote:
Eightball wrote:Namath is another. More career INTs than TDs...173 to 220. 39th in Passing Yards, 42nd in TDs.

So if Swann and Namath are in, that means it then should become the Hall of Very Good? Is that the logic you're using?
I certainly don't think Swann deserves to be in the HoF, or even have been considered. all I'm saying is maybe you should look beyond only the stats? it's obvious all the long time voters don't think they're the only factor

do you disagree with their philosophy? in other words, are stats a full 100% of the criteria for you?

Not 100%, but they're the most easily quantifiable comparative. I mean an impact player will get his stats, right? You can't impact a game as a wide receiver if you don't get touchdowns, or catches, or yards, right?

I mean Rod Gardner is an excellent blocking WR, but the last time I checked, he was a 4th string WR for the Panthers (got cut) and then a backup for the injury riddled Packers....

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:00 am

RunningMn9 wrote:Instead of all the homers arguing for why people should be in, perhaps we can see some arguments on why some of these guys shouldn't?

I'll take Aikman - but it looks like this is going to have to serve as a placeholder until I can finish this post at work.

Let's start here

Aikman's career numbers:

Passing - Completed 2,898 of 4,715 Passes for 32,942 Yards and 165 Touchdowns

And compare to This guy

Passing - Completed 2874 of 5,024 passes for 34,241 Yards and 196 Touchdowns

If Troy Aikman is a HOFer, then so is Steve DeBerg.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:01 am

Exodor wrote:If Troy Aikman is a HOFer, then so is Steve DeBerg.

Steve DeBerg did have the nicest play action fake I've ever seen...

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:03 am

Eightball wrote:Steve DeBerg did have the nicest play action fake I've ever seen...

Steve DeBerg remains the only NFL player I've ever met.

Nice guy.

AND he played how many games with that God-awful huge pinky cast?

Steron · Post by **Steron** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:03 am

KePoW wrote:
Eightball wrote:Namath is another. More career INTs than TDs...173 to 220. 39th in Passing Yards, 42nd in TDs.

So if Swann and Namath are in, that means it then should become the Hall of Very Good? Is that the logic you're using?
I certainly don't think Swann deserves to be in the HoF, or even have been considered. all I'm saying is maybe you should look beyond only the stats? it's obvious all the long time voters don't think they're the only factor

do you disagree with their philosophy? in other words, are stats a full 100% of the criteria for you?

I think the problem most people have is that there are no set criteria. How do you measure striking fear into opponents or leadership.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:20 am

Eightball wrote:
Exodor wrote:If Troy Aikman is a HOFer, then so is Steve DeBerg.
Steve DeBerg did have the nicest play action fake I've ever seen...

Erm, Aikman's numbers are over 12 seasons as opposed to DeBerg's 21 seasons (or if you want to go by games, 165 games vs 207). And that does not include Aikman's postseason stats (Or DeBerg's postseason stats, which are minimal light). I don't doubt that DeBerg is a nice guy, though, and he gets props for longevity.

Aikman's personal passing stats are not gaudy, but they are solid. You also have to factor in wins/postseason as well, which I think are probably more important than raw passing yards. Any starting QB who wins 3 SB's almost certainly deserves to be in the Hall, as long as the rest of their resume is solid.

FTR, I'm not sold on Irvin being in, and probably would leave him out. He was fairly dominant for a while but his numbers are a little light.