Twilight Struggle coming to the PC! [and iOS, Android etc]

[Isgrimnur]

Forgot to watch the Defcon, nuked the world after an African coup.

[Defiant]

Well, I only played one game and lost badly about 6 rounds(?) in. At least I had plenty of control of Europe when I lost, including much of East Europe.

The interface seems fine. you can move around easily (theres a hot button for the different continents). It gives you information on what your actions will do (and the probability of success) before you confirm. Information up top (eg, space race, etc) isnt always completely clear, but if you click on it, it will open up more detailed information. Sometimes the card the opponent plays goes too quickly - it just quickly displays it for a second or two and then it goes away - I'm pretty sure there's some way to view it after that that I just haven't figured out yet.

The only really annoying thing is that it takes a significant amount of time (maybe a couple of minutes?) for the AI to move (and that you can't just understand the entire game just by looking at it. I mean, I wasn't totally lost, but it's clear I'm going to have to either go through the tutorials or learn some strategy to do well.). I can't really judge how good an AI it is, though.

[Holman]

So for those that have it, would you recommend picking it up right now while it's on sale?

If you like Twilight Struggle, definitely. Gameplay is identical to the boardgame, so reviews at BGG can tell you everything you want to know about it.

The interface on the PC is very well done, although I wonder if phone and even iPad screens might feel small for it. Incidentally, there are some nice thematic touches, such as brief soundbites from the appropriate leader (e.g. Truman on turn 2) when a new turn begins.

Forgot to watch the Defcon, nuked the world after an African coup.

The game doesn't give you any warning when you're about to do this, and neither does El Guapo.

[Lordnine]

So for those that have it, would you recommend picking it up right now while it's on sale?

If you like Twilight Struggle, definitely. Gameplay is identical to the boardgame, so reviews at BGG can tell you everything you want to know about it.

The interface on the PC is very well done, although I wonder if phone and even iPad screens might feel small for it. Incidentally, there are some nice thematic touches, such as brief soundbites from the appropriate leader (e.g. Truman on turn 2) when a new turn begins.

I've never played it actually. How is it at teaching the game?

[Holman]

I've never played it actually. How is it at teaching the game?

There's a tutorial built in, but I haven't looked at it because I've been playing the boardgame for a while. The full rulebook is included.

The rules are easy to grasp. Mastery involves learning all the cards and their ramifications, but getting there is half the fun.

TS is a wonderful game. It produces terrific narrative, and if you lived during the Cold War it has all kinds of relevant cool.

[tgb]

Well crap. It appears I'll be in the hospital longer than expected. Probably another 10 days. TLR is bringing my laptop tomorrow so I can try to get some work done, but in case that doesn't work out, does anyone know when the Android version is due?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Sepiche]

I've never played it actually. How is it at teaching the game?

The tutorial seems pretty solid to me. It steps you through a turn and covers all the basic commands and gives you hints about the higher level strategies. Granted I'd at least played a game of this about a year or so ago, but I didn't remember much of the rules before I did the tutorial.

Well crap. It appears I'll be in the hospital longer than expected. Probably another 10 days. TLR is bringing my laptop tomorrow so I can try to get some work done, but in case that doesn't work out, does anyone know when the Android version is due?

Hope it's nothing serious!

Only mention I can find of a release date for the mobile versions is that the iPad version is due out in April, so presumably that means all the mobile versions will be out sometime soon.

[Defiant]

Wow, this game is so much easier as the USSR. I was getting better cards, able to make lots of progress (in the space race, in the Mideast, east Asia and Europe), and finally won when the AI decided to boycott the Olympics which cost him the game

[Sepiche]

Early game leans toward the USSR as they have a lot of good events and the US player should focus on keeping the USSR off balance and try to keep scoring as even as possible, but in the late game the events lean more toward the US.

One thing that helped me a lot was the extended sample game in the back of the rules:
http://www.gmtgames.com/living_rules/TS ... Deluxe.pdf

That's a blow by blow account of two top players along with some of the strategy behind their moves. It's an excellent look at how deep and well balanced the game is once you have a working knowledge of the cards.

[baelthazar]

Well crap. It appears I'll be in the hospital longer than expected. Probably another 10 days. TLR is bringing my laptop tomorrow so I can try to get some work done, but in case that doesn't work out, does anyone know when the Android version is due?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Get well soon!

[tgb]

Thanks q

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Archinerd]

So I figured since I own the boardgame and have played that a fair number of times that I would be frustrated with the AI being unable to give me a challenge. I was wrong. After I refreshed myself on the game rules (thanks tutorial) I played probably a half dozen games last night as the US and lost every single one. I'm beginning to think I'm not very good at this game. Actually, I know I'm not, but I am having fun.

As far as the port to digital goes, this is a pretty good recreation of the game. There are a few interface quirks that I don't like unable to fully zoom out (not that bif of deal), no press escape to exit menus, un-intuitive discard pile (not sure how you do it better), the previously mentioned computer that moves things too fast to see and I can't read them and Soviets blocking me out of Israel every time! Okay, so that last one isn't anything to do with the interface, but if I'm going to ever win a game as US I'm going to need that Israel space.

In short, I like it.

[El Guapo]

Honestly the mid east isn't that important. You just need to be sure to maintain presence; beyond that it's not worth all that much. Though you need to watch out for opec in the mid to late game.

[Holman]

On the computer moving things too quickly to see: it's easy to miss, but the tabs along the bottom of the screen list every action taken, so you can always review where the operation points or the influence went.

I think I've played about 15 games to completion since the beta began, and I'm embarrassed to say that I've lost the majority. The AI offers a fun challenge, and PlayDek has said that they're going to keep improving it.

I have only seen the AI blow the DefCon (unforced) a couple of times. I've actually done it more often myself.

It's easy to trap the AI with certain special cards at the right time: e.g. "Blockade" requires the U.S. to discard a 3-Op card or lose all its influence in West Germany, so naturally you play it at the end of the turn when the U.S. has only one or two cards in his hand. But that trick works on humans too.

I've several times seen the AI play a card for Ops when (to my eye) the Event would have been more useful, but it does usually seem to have a plan. It doesn't just spam influence all over the place.

[Archinerd]

I have only seen the AI blow the DefCon (unforced) a couple of times. I've actually done it more often myself.

The only weird thing I've noticed the AI do is play a Headline event that had no effect.

It's easy to trap the AI with certain special cards at the right time: e.g. "Blockade" requires the U.S. to discard a 3-Op card or lose all its influence in West Germany, so naturally you play it at the end of the turn when the U.S. has only one or two cards in his hand. But that trick works on humans too.

The AI has used that trick on me twice.

[Sepiche]

I'm doing pretty well for now in my current game as the US.

It started off rough when I got terrible draws the first two turns. In those turns I at least managed to get lucky with a well timed Europe score, but I got pushed out of the Middle East hard before the USSR scored it and also got hit hard in Asia. I was so pressed for any operation cards over 1, I risked playing the Korean War to get the operation points, hoping to get lucky during the war, but instead the North won and took full control of the South right before the Soviets scored Asia.

After that things stated turning around though... I got the South East Asia scoring card and was able to make a quick grab at land there before playing the card and racking up some points, then a turn or two later I played a headline that gave me 4 influence to play right as the Soviets played Score South America. That gave me a chance to grab a couple battlegrounds there quick and get the domination points.

I'm getting ready to head into the late war now and I've currently got domination in all the regions except Africa and the Middle East. In the Middle East I was at least able to get back on the board by controlling Egypt after getting creamed by events, but the Soviets dominate there otherwise. I have South Africa and Algeria now in Africa, but the Soviets have all the other central battlegrounds.

Really enjoying the port of the game overall though. It's got some rough edges and I've noticed a few bugs mostly around being zoomed in, but on the whole it's very functional and stylish.

[Defiant]

The only weird thing I've noticed the AI do is play a Headline event that had no effect.

Could it have been to get rid of a (not very valuable) card?

I mean, IIUC, all headlining does is force you to play the event of a card. When I'm in a good position for it, I'll play a score card there or an event I was already going to do, but there are a few times when I've played a low value card that had no effect, or even gave a minor positive effect to the other side, so that I would have higher value cards in my hand.

[Defiant]

Heres a question for people with experience with the game - do the values roughly correspond to the power of the events? Outside of particular situations where the cards are idea for, are there certain cards you would almost always (or never) use the event for, instead of the values?

[Sepiche]

do the values roughly correspond to the power of the events?

I think that's broadly the case, although the events are usually pretty situational.

Played at the right time an event will usually give you a better result than just using a card for the operation points, but sometimes given the situation on the board, playing the card as an event might give you nothing, so it's better to use it for the operation points.

For instance "The Truman Doctrine" is a 1 operation points card with the text: "Remove all USSR influence in one uncontrolled country in Europe".

On the whole that's a pretty limited event, and if the Soviets have control of all the countries they have influence in, it would be worthless to play as an event. However if the Soviets use De Galle to make a move on France, or you happen to break Soviet control on Eastern Germany it could be worth 3 or 4 points when used as an event instead of only 1.

[Archinerd]

The only weird thing I've noticed the AI do is play a Headline event that had no effect.

Could it have been to get rid of a (not very valuable) card?

I mean, IIUC, all headlining does is force you to play the event of a card. When I'm in a good position for it, I'll play a score card there or an event I was already going to do, but there are a few times when I've played a low value card that had no effect, or even gave a minor positive effect to the other side, so that I would have higher value cards in my hand.

Possibly. Another possibility is it may have been the only event in their hand that did not benefit me that turn too.
There are reasons you might want to do this, it was just odd.

[Holman]

I've noticed that the AI will take advantage of your blunders, like when it's Defcon 2 and your card allows it to play ops. It will perform a battleground coup and drop Defcon to 1, winning the game because it happened on your turn.

[Defiant]

I've noticed that the AI will take advantage of your blunders, like when it's Defcon 2 and your card allows it to play ops. It will perform a battleground coup and drop Defcon to 1, winning the game because it happened on your turn.

Is that really a loss, in the real game? That seems like a flaw, if so.

[Holman]

I've noticed that the AI will take advantage of your blunders, like when it's Defcon 2 and your card allows it to play ops. It will perform a battleground coup and drop Defcon to 1, winning the game because it happened on your turn.

Is that really a loss, in the real game? That seems like a flaw, if so.

Them's the rules:

8.1.3 If DEFCON 1 status is reached, nuclear war breaks out and
the game ends immediately. The phasing player is responsible for
the status marker moving to DEFCON 1, and loses the game.

You're the "phasing player" if it's your card. That's why you have to be extra careful at Defcon 2.

[El Guapo]

I've noticed that the AI will take advantage of your blunders, like when it's Defcon 2 and your card allows it to play ops. It will perform a battleground coup and drop Defcon to 1, winning the game because it happened on your turn.

Is that really a loss, in the real game? That seems like a flaw, if so.

It is. It's really not hard to avoid at all, though, it just means that you need to pay attention.

[hepcat]

Yup. Trying to force an opponent to do that is a viable strategy.

On another topic, TS can't see your steam friend's list, can it? I'm guessing it uses Playdek servers for users. If so, are we posting in game names?

[tgb]

The best way to learn the game is following major surgery. Being able to contemplate the setup and headline phases for a couple of hours each while studying your hand is a huge help.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Zarathud]

Argh. The AI keeps forcing me into playing cards which allow them to conduct ops on my turn. Which they then use to trigger Thermonuclear War and it's MY fault because I'm the phasing player! Cheesy bastard! I had worked my way up to 2 points behind from 9-13 points behind and was about to take the lead from Controlling Europe when the AI was going to be forced to play the European scoring at the end of the round!

Love not having to handle all the stat maintenance/reminders.

[tgb]

I bought and downloaded this the same day as my surgery, and it's been a great way to give me something else to think about over the past two weeks.
This was my first personal exposure to the game, and I've yet to survive past Turn 4. I pretty muc have the Early War cards memorized.

That said, I'm still trying to grok MilOps and how it affects the score.

[Isgrimnur]

You earn points for Ops. At the end of the turn, if you don't have as much as DefCon level, you lose that many points. Of course, I've seen myself and the pop lose the same number of points, so it's a sliding scale if it needs to be worried about.

[tgb]

Do you earn points only by playing events? Keep in mind that at this point I've really only seen the Early War cards

[NickAragua]

Military ops points can also be acquired by staging coups.

[Zarathud]

Military ops can come from events or staging coups. You are encouraged to play 1 influence into a nation then come back later for a coup. That gives your opponent a chance to react with their own move -- say, to influence a nearby nation, realign to lower your influence or stage their own coup which might preclude further coups in that region by lowering the DEFCON. Coups are often hard to pull off but very powerful in addition to the potential few VPs every turn.

[Holman]

Do you earn points only by playing events? Keep in mind that at this point I've really only seen the Early War cards

Maybe it's obvious, but "points" has several meanings in this game:

--Victory points, which are awarded by certain events but mainly won when regional scoring cards are played,
--Influence points, tracked for the USSR and US for each country on the map and acquired by various means,
--Operations points, the value of a played card that can be spent on various actions towards other kinds of points,
--Military operations points, acquired by events and by spending card operations points on coups, then compared to DefCon at the end of each turn for possible victory point penalties.

[tgb]

Being laid up in the hospital for 2 1/2 weeks has given me an opportunity to play the shit out of this, and still never last until turn 5.
on 2
One thing - I thought I understood the so-called "suicide trap" of playing the Olympics card at Defcon 2. My understanding is that the player making the decision to boycott becomes the "phasing player", and so loses when Defcon drops again.

But in a game last night, I played the card, the AI declined, and the game ended - declaring the AI the winner. Is that a bug or am I still not getting something?

I wouldn't care but I'd like to get one win on the board

[Holman]

If it's your card, you're the phasing player. Olympics gives your opponent the option to lower DefCon on your turn, so if it goes to 1 you're the loser.

At DefCon 2, you've got to pay close attention to any cards that let your opponent do anything.

[Archinerd]

If it's your card, you're the phasing player. Olympics gives your opponent the option to lower DefCon on your turn, so if it goes to 1 you're the loser.

At DefCon 2, you've got to pay close attention to any cards that let your opponent do anything.

I've owned the physical version of this game for years but didn't ever realize this until I started playing this digital version against the AI. Even then, it was a tough lesson for me to learn as I made the same dumb mistake 3 times before I finally got it. If it's any consolation, the AI makes this mistake from time to time as well - just be on the look out for it. I managed to snag a victory this way from certain defeat during one game.

[Zarathud]

Sometimes you are forced into triggering an opponent's action on your turn. The Space Race and hand management are often your only alternatives -- but you can easily get screwed once Defcon 2 happens.

[Archinerd]

Sometimes you are forced into triggering an opponent's action on your turn. The Space Race and hand management are often your only alternatives -- but you can easily get screwed once Defcon 2 happens.

Which fits the theme, if you're playing around on the brink of nuclear war you should have to be careful.

I just played a game against the AI who did a coup attempt against Brazil (a battleground) on their turn during Defcon 2. I'm not sure why it did that, because it had alternatives like placing Influence or a trying for Realignment.

[Holman]

Also, I can't help but wonder if they're going to try to take down the Vassal module on this. You'd think a free multiplayer version of this (admittedly, lacking single player) would cut into their sales a bit.

Incidentally, I just saw the following posted at ConSimWorld:

Gene, I don't know what the agreement is between you and Playdek, but given GMTs support of online implementations of your games in general (VASSAL, ACTS, wargameroom, etc), can you let us know why you're asking the person running Chantry Games to take down Twilight Struggle?

Roger,

Anything except Wargameroom and VASSAL/Cyberboard/ACTS (which we specifically exempted when we negotiated the Playdek contract) violates the digital exclusivity clause of our Playdek agreement. So if we allow a third party play site to stay online, we are in breach of our contract with Playdek. We're not picking on Chantry - we had to shut down another site earlier this year. We don't like to do it, but we have to honor legal/contractual commitments.

I hope this answers your question.

So it seems that GMT took steps to make sure the VASSAL module stays up.

[Zarathud]

Fair enough.