WoW - has it destroyed your life yet?

[jpinard]

This is old, "It's not all my fault!" People not wanting to take 100% responsability for themselves.

You know what? It's this kind of stupid attitude that perpetuates ignorance and denial, and is the reason lawsuits (greed notwithstanding) are so insanely out of control.

[IceBear]

What if you don't have a life to begin with? Can WoW still destroy it? If not, I'm safe

[Sudy]

And at the end of the day, it's still about the loot and the levels.

It's only about the loot and levels because people make it about the loot and levels. I know many people with 60s decked out in greens who have a great time playing, and others who have played the game since launch, still don't have a 60, and have no problem with that at all. WoW, like anything else in life, is what you make of it. Some people just take it the extreme, but it's no different than any other addiction. Good or bad, it's a choice and each person is responsible for his or her own decisions.

I wasn't a so-called hardcore player, either. My addiction was playing the auction house, and I made obscene amounts of gold manipulating the ore, herb, and moss agate markets. I was only decked out in greens, myself (albeit matching greens--I'd always plan out my gear levels in advance so that I could look good, buying each piece from the AH as it became available).

I guess my point was, WoW never ceases to be about character advancement. Not for the vast, vast majority of players. There aren't many roleplayers content to stick it out in Goldshire at level five for months on end. Of course, my original comment was intended as support for the argument that playing WoW is a creatively bereft pastime. I never claimed that we aren't responsible for our choices--just that I think playing WoW isn't a good one.

[RLMullen]

Bullshit. You call 12 hours a week "too much commitment to be considered a pasttime or simple entertainment"?

Great way to pull one single number from my post with which to base your knee-jerk argument.

Quite frankly, your post sounds like you're looking for anything and everything to blame but yourself.

??????
I don't raid, so I'm not looking to remove blame from myself here. I looked at the time committment required to raid, and decided that it did not fit with my current life, so I didn't seek a raid guild. *shrug*

Yes, but, you see, RLMullen is placing 100% of the blame on raids - despite the fact that he claims only a tiny percentage of players raid.

I said THAT!?! Where?

I'll admit my earlier post was a bit of a rant... I wrote it before I had my first cup of coffee this morning.

I'm going to restate myself, and I'd really like a sensible argument against it... not a knee-jerk auto-response.

First of all, I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility... let me say upfront I Blame The Gamer!!

With that said, I cannot say the game is completely blameless. I think the raid mechanic encourages obsessive behavior, and it is a horrible mechanic to use in an entertainment product.

These all apply to the main raid progression in WoW
- Requires 40 people to complete any goal
- Requires a 12+ hour time committment per week... usually in 4 hour chunks
- Encourages participants to keep up with the group so as to not fall behind in the progression
- Encourages/requires additional time committment to prepare for the main event

I challange you to find one other pastime that carries ALL of those requirements.

I'll address the fishing tournament example from earlier because I know something about fishing tournaments. I participated in BASS fishing tournaments for 10 years. During that time I made it to the state championship several times. Yes, a fishing tournament can take 12 hours... in my case due to travel a tournament day was typically 16+ hours. That was 16 hours once per month... not once per week. We had a single 2-day tournament per year, and the regional / state tournaments were multi-day events. The pastime did require a time committment, but it was nowhere near the number of hours or the consistancy of hours as required by MMO raiding.

We did have members in our club who would fish other tournament trails, and they fished 3 to 4 weekends per month (now we are talking "raid hours"). One of these guys lost his marriage because of his fishing obsession, and another sold his boat and truck on a whim in order to keep from losing his 2nd marriage. I wouldn't be too quick to point to one obsessive behavior to defend another.

The two biggest problems with raids in my opinion is needing a large group and the single sitting time committment. The need for a large group encourages the peer pressure that has been noted by others. People SHOULD be able to reist peer pressure... this is where personal responsibility comes into play. On the other hand, highly intelligent game developers SHOULD be able to design a game mechanic that doesn't produce this peer pressure. Who's to blame? The gamer who has no willpower of course, but I also blame the game mechanic for not providing other options.

The single sitting time requirement is also problematic. For a single person in their 20's, four hours on a weeknight is nothing. For someone with a family, those four hours are often the prime hours for family contact. It's the time where couples spend a little quality time together. It's the time when parents help kids with their homework... or play a game with them... or any number of things.

Put these two things together and you have a disaster for everyone except the single folks, and the few lucky married folks who raid with their spouse. You end up with people compelled to sit at their computer for four hours straight all the while focusing all of their attention on what's happening on screen. You don't want your priest to miss a heal because he decides to listen to his wife for a few minutes. How long would you put up with your main tank leaving the raid so he could read a bedtime story to his daughter. How about one of your mages leaves right before the boss fight because she wants to help her son with his math homework?

Hell... find me a guild that raids at 6:00 AM on Sat and Sun mornings, and I'll be raiding in no time.

You can defend it all you want, but the raid mechanic is ONLY suitable for people who have loads of uncommitted time. Unfortunately for those of us with loads of COMMITTED time, the raid mechanic IS the end game in WoW.

[Zinfan]

Ahh we need some -50DKP raid humor from youtube Warning NSFW Language

[Zurai]

You can defend it all you want, but the raid mechanic is ONLY suitable for people who have loads of uncommitted time. Unfortunately for those of us with loads of COMMITTED time, the raid mechanic IS the end game in WoW.

First, spell my name right. It's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU and the quote button AUTOMATICALLY FILLS IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!

Second. You've made this identical claim several times in several threads, been disproved each time, and you STILL insist on lieing/misdirecting out of your ass.

There are people in my guild - a self-acclaimed hardcore progression guild that went from guild formation to the most-progressed Horde guild on our server in 3 months time - that raid with us less than once a week. We have no required attendance policy; it's requested that you keep a 75% attendance, but not required. Our raiding hours are 3 hours a day, 3-4 days a week. Even going by the recommended 75% attendance, you could get by in our guild with less than 12 hours commitment, which is so abhorrent to you.

As someone else posted, the average American household watches over 4 hours of TV every single day. That's 28 hours a week. If you have 28 hours a week to spend watching TV, you can scrap together 9 hours a week to raid in a good raiding guild.

[SlapBone]

You've made this identical claim several times in several threads, been disproved each time, and you STILL insist on lieing/misdirecting out of your ass.

There are people in my guild - a self-acclaimed hardcore progression guild that went from guild formation to the most-progressed Horde guild on our server in 3 months time - that raid with us less than once a week. We have no required attendance policy; it's requested that you keep a 75% attendance, but not required. Our raiding hours are 3 hours a day, 3-4 days a week. Even going by the recommended 75% attendance, you could get by in our guild with less than 12 hours commitment, which is so abhorrent to you.

You still didn't answer the main point of his argument:

These all apply to the main raid progression in WoW
- Requires 40 people to complete any goal
- Requires a 12+ hour time committment per week... usually in 4 hour chunks
- Encourages participants to keep up with the group so as to not fall behind in the progression
- Encourages/requires additional time committment to prepare for the main event

I challenge you to find one other pastime that carries ALL of those requirements.

So what did he say that caused you to react with such hyperbole and venom? That people who raid are complete losers with no life and have alienated everyone who cares about them? Nope, he didn't even imply it.

[Zurai]

You still didn't answer the main point of his argument:

Actually, I did. I suggest you go back and read my post and compare what I say to what his claims are. If it isn't beyond you.

[SlapBone]

You still didn't answer the main point of his argument:

Actually, I did. I suggest you go back and read my post and compare what I say to what his claims are. If it isn't beyond you.

So you wait till 40 people are assembled before every television watching session? I bet that's some crazy shit. His point was that all of those things are neccessary ar at the least, strongly encouraged..

This thread combined with the Southpark episode convinced me to cancel my WOW account again. I've got 4 kids, a fulltime job, and I go to college. I was getting back into the swing the last couple of weeks, but I realized that it was already starting to cut into my time I had allocated to family and study.

[RLMullen]

First, spell my name right. It's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU and the quote button AUTOMATICALLY FILLS IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!

My apologies for misspelling your name. No need to be an asshole about it though.

I'm still waiting for you to actually address the point that I'm making here. You have NOT done that. Here... let me repost it yet again.

These all apply to the main raid progression in WoW
- Requires 40 people to complete any goal
- Requires a 12+ hour time committment per week... usually in 4 hour chunks
- Encourages participants to keep up with the group so as to not fall behind in the progression
- Encourages/requires additional time committment to prepare for the main event

I challange you to find one other pastime that carries ALL of those requirements.

There it is one more time.

I don't care what your guild did, or what your guild does, but since you brought it up. What happened to your "less than once a week" raiders when you progressed to BWL, and then AQ? Were they sufficently geared, or did they get left behind?

[Poleaxe]

You still didn't answer the main point of his argument:

Actually, I did. I suggest you go back and read my post and compare what I say to what his claims are. If it isn't beyond you.

In fairness, TV does not absorb the attention in the same way playing an MMO does. I can watch TV with the family. We can converse while watching TV, or at least during commercials. The TV has no schedule.

Listen, we're all gamers here, I doubt anyone is suggesting that gaming isn't a fine way to pass some free time.

[RLMullen]

In fairness, TV does not absorb the attention in the same way playing an MMO does. I can watch TV with the family. We can converse while watching TV, or at least during commercials. The TV has no schedule.

It used to have a schedule, but then TiVO was invented. Wait a minute!! This can't possibly mean that people don't like to schedule their lives around their pastimes could it?

Listen, we're all gamers here, I doubt anyone is suggesting that gaming isn't a fine way to pass some free time.

You are most correct. I'm certainly not suggesting that gaming is "bad". I'm just stating that I find the raid mechanic in MMO's an extrememly poor game mechanic.

It's an interesting irony that in many, if not most, ways technology is being used to enable people to control their lives, business, and interests... allowing them to control when and where they partake of such activities. I'm thinking TiVO, DVDs, iPods, cell phones, VPN's. But one of the new forms of entertainment to arise from technology does the exact opposite.

[The Preacher]

WoW leads to debate
Debate leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering

Mmm, angry do not get, yes.

[Koz]

The game is designed to keep you playing. You are responsible to know when you should and should not keep playing. Obviously there are those that have no clue what their limitation is.

Or, if you prefer WoWspeak: QQ more.

[Toe]

You can defend it all you want, but the raid mechanic is ONLY suitable for people who have loads of uncommitted time.

I disagree to some extent. There are more and more "casual" raid groups popping up every week. They have lose loot rules that do not penalize folks for lack of attendence. They understand that RL comes first. Sure, these raid groups do not progress as fast as others, but, that does not keep them from raiding and having fun.

Those players that want fast raid progression, yes, they do commit more time to the game. But, not all raiders share that mentality.

[RLMullen]

You can defend it all you want, but the raid mechanic is ONLY suitable for people who have loads of uncommitted time.

I disagree to some extent. There are more and more "casual" raid groups popping up every week. They have lose loot rules that do not penalize folks for lack of attendence. They understand that RL comes first. Sure, these raid groups do not progress as fast as others, but, that does not keep them from raiding and having fun.

I'm hoping that the changes that are coming in BC make these guilds more the rule than the exception. We'll see.

[DArtagnan]

Based on Zurai's attitude and responses, I'd venture a guess that he's addicted and has a problem admitting it to himself

[Zurai]

These all apply to the main raid progression in WoW
- Requires 40 people to complete any goal
- Requires a 12+ hour time committment per week... usually in 4 hour chunks
- Encourages participants to keep up with the group so as to not fall behind in the progression
- Encourages/requires additional time committment to prepare for the main event

I challange you to find one other pastime that carries ALL of those requirements.

College Football.

-Team rosters + coaches easily make up more than 40 people
- 12 hours a week? Try multi-hour practices daily and 6+ hours of work the day of the game.
- If you don't keep up with the team, you're not gonna be on the team long.
- Players, especially players like quarterbacks, are expected to prepare ahead of time for the team they face each week by studying video, etc.



I'd also challenge at least one of your points: Raiding doesn't require 40 people. There are 20 person raids.

[Zurai]

Based on Zurai's attitude and responses, I'd venture a guess that he's addicted and has a problem admitting it to himself

C'mon. If all you're going to do is troll, do everyone a favor and just don't post.

[RLMullen]

College Football.

We've found our communication gap!!!!!!!!!

If you think playing college football is a pastime then I can see where you'd think that there is no problem with the raid mechanic.

I'd also challenge at least one of your points: Raiding doesn't require 40 people. There are 20 person raids.

I knew you say this that why I qualified my challenge with:

These all apply to the main raid progression in WoW

The main raid progression consists of MC, BWL, AQ, and Naxx ... Ony may be part of it as well, isn't there a Tier 1 piece dropped there?

And yes, it IS about the loot. Progression and loot are the positive feedback elements that keep people playing... and currently the only form of progression at 60 IS the loot.

[RLMullen]

Based on Zurai's attitude and responses, I'd venture a guess that he's addicted and has a problem admitting it to himself

C'mon. If all you're going to do is troll, do everyone a favor and just don't post.

Yes that post was trollish, but it can't be completely dismissed.

Your attitude in this thread is totally out of character with your other postings. When I contrast your posting here with the highly informative Burning Crusade beta posts, it's like two different people.

You might want to ask yourself why my dislike of raiding bothers you so much, and why you get so emotional and irrational about it.

[GreenGoo]

Yes that post was trollish, but it can't be completely dismissed.

Of course it can. If you are passionate about civil war re-enactment, and I tell you what a waste of time it is, and that all your research, organization and choreography is a waste of time, that you are addicted and no skill is involved, I'm pretty confident you'd react negatively too.

I'm just saying, if you attack something someone enjoys, and they defend it/themselves, somewhat vigorously in this case, you can't simply turn around and try and use that defense as "proof" of your original point.

[Reemul]

I think any guild that requires ANY level of attendance is not a GOOD thing, it's not like school or work where we have to go.

Someone made a great point about watching TV versus playing online, my wife hates me playing online games because i can't pause it stop it or just log out right now but with any other type of game i can, with Sky+(uk tivo) i can pause, rewind or record right now. So if i want to do anything in the raids generally i need to say please don't interrupt me for 1 hour or 2 hours or even upto 3 or 4. For many people this just isn't what they want while they would still like to be able to continue playing WoW.

I love playing Alterac Valley which normally takes about 60-90 mins but at least i can go hide fi the wife needs me or sit in the cemetary, the problem is it takes another 90mins for the queue to go down, means 3 hours online again.

Many many people would like instances or smaller raids that take an hour or so, the drops don't have to be as good as the longer ones but it would let them log in, group up and play for that hour or 2 they may have to play. Hopefully BC will bring that to the game.

[Toe]

Someone made a great point about watching TV versus playing online, my wife hates me playing online games because i can't pause it stop it or just log out right now...

Well, it is a team-oriented game. If you played recreational softball, would she also hate it cause you can't pause it or leave at the drop of a hat? Maybe if you established a "game night" one or two nights a week and the rest "practice nights" she could grasp the concept better. On practice nights, you could log out whenever needed. If you hang around the right players, that should not be a problem. On game nights, your team needs you there to win (of course with advanced warning you can most always find a sub to take your place).

[The Mad Hatter]

Based on Zurai's attitude and responses, I'd venture a guess that he's addicted and has a problem admitting it to himself

C'mon. If all you're going to do is troll, do everyone a favor and just don't post.

Yes that post was trollish, but it can't be completely dismissed.

Your attitude in this thread is totally out of character with your other postings. When I contrast your posting here with the highly informative Burning Crusade beta posts, it's like two different people.

You might want to ask yourself why my dislike of raiding bothers you so much, and why you get so emotional and irrational about it.

It's not your dislike of raiding, it's the fact that you would like them to remove that mechanic from the game. There are many of us who enjoy what raiding brings to WoW - as I noted above, it’s an entirely separate aspect of the game which is far more interesting and challenging than your average instance run or PVP match. It’s also quite possible to do the 40 man raids on a regular basis and not sacrifice family and friends. If people don’t like it, fine, but please allow the rest of us to continue enjoying it.

[The Mad Hatter]

I think any guild that requires ANY level of attendance is not a GOOD thing, it's not like school or work where we have to go.

Someone made a great point about watching TV versus playing online, my wife hates me playing online games because i can't pause it stop it or just log out right now but with any other type of game i can, with Sky+(uk tivo) i can pause, rewind or record right now. So if i want to do anything in the raids generally i need to say please don't interrupt me for 1 hour or 2 hours or even upto 3 or 4. For many people this just isn't what they want while they would still like to be able to continue playing WoW.

I love playing Alterac Valley which normally takes about 60-90 mins but at least i can go hide fi the wife needs me or sit in the cemetary, the problem is it takes another 90mins for the queue to go down, means 3 hours online again.

Many many people would like instances or smaller raids that take an hour or so, the drops don't have to be as good as the longer ones but it would let them log in, group up and play for that hour or 2 they may have to play. Hopefully BC will bring that to the game.

The expansion will bring that to the game, that's probably the main theme of BC. New raiding instances are capped at 25 people and there are a number of 5-10 man zones being added as well. There's a degree of time commitment involved with even the 5 man instances, of course - it is a team game, as someone else noted.

[Gedd]

And yes, it IS about the loot. Progression and loot are the positive feedback elements that keep people playing... and currently the only form of progression at 60 IS the loot.

Actually, this is a bit of bad stereotype of all raiders, and you contradicted yourself a bit there. You say it's all about the loot, but then say that progression and loot are the positive feedback that keep people playing.

Progression comes in two forms though. One is loot, and for sure, there are plenty of folks out there who are raiding solely for their shot at teh purplez.

The other form of progression that most folks overlook is advancing your raid by beating new bosses and encounters in raid zones. In fact, the folks that are generally more fun to raid with are those that are focused on this kind of progression. There's a feeling that accompanies beating that boss for the first (and sometimes second!) time. It's not restricted to just raid zones either. The first time I 5-manned undead Stratholme was a great feeling of accomplishment (this was back when most everyone 10-manned it).

It's not even restricted just to WoW or MMOs for that matter. You get the same great feeling when you beat a tough boss in any game, or meet any number of diffcult goals. I got the same kind of rush when my wife and I beat X-Men Legends a few weeks ago, or when I did my first successful mission in Longbow 2, or when I won for the first time in Civ.

There are other accomplishments too. When your group finally gets get good enough to do an instance in 3-4 hours, that's a big deal (no matter what the instance, gratz Toe!). You generally start out spending a whole night on the first boss, and when you're able to do a one night zone clear, it's because the group has learned to work well with each other, and everyone is playing at their best.

Loot is the primary reason people keep coming back to the instances over and over again. In some ways, even that's not a bad thing. Getting more loot for your group makes it more capable, enabling you to beat bigger and badder boss encounters. It's why most raid groups have a farming instance and one progression/learning instance.

Do I wish things were different? You bet. While I don't think raid instances are things that should be something you do for a few weeks and then quit (the devs would have to come up with an unreasonable amount of new content for that), it would be awful nice if, by the time the group is tired of doing the zone, it was possible to drop it without farming it ad nauseum (and farming is really a thing with no distinct end point).

This is old, "It's not all my fault!" People not wanting to take 100% responsability for themselves.

You know what? It's this kind of stupid attitude that perpetuates ignorance and denial, and is the reason lawsuits (greed notwithstanding) are so insanely out of control.

And it's this kind of kneejerk reaction to these kinds of articles that tend to make people miss the point. Maybe I need to re-read the article, but nowhere did I see the guy say that WoW should be shut down, and that the game was the source of all his problems. I do see him looking at himself (and some others he played with) and realizing that he was spending too much time playing, that he was addicted, and that he was going to take control of his life and cut the source of his addiction.

Surely there are folks who would put the blame for their addictions solely on the things they are addicted to, but I don't think it's this guy.

[Jag]

I think that's part of the problem. I've been both casual and hardcore. Right now i'm in casual mode after goind hardcore for awhile. I can tell you what drives the hardcore people is not loot, but progression. They look forward to spending 2-3 hours, wiping over and over, just to try and get one guy down. They spend tons of money and know the reward will only benefit 1 or 2 people out of 40.

It's about the challenge and working as a team. It's a rush being able to pull it off, especially if no one else is able to do it. Compare it to playing team sports (something i never did). Why do you do it? It's for the joy of playing as a team and thrill of winning together when everyone gives their all.

[wonderpug]

And that's exactly why people are so unselfish and generous when something drops.

"You take it!" "No, you take it!" "Really, I just came for the experience, it's all yours."

"Another week's run without a single drop for my class? No biggie!"

"Bob is looting all the high end materials for himself? Glad they're not going to waste!"

[Zurai]

We've found our communication gap!!!!!!!!!

If you think playing college football is a pastime then I can see where you'd think that there is no problem with the raid mechanic.

Define "pasttime" for me, then.

The main raid progression consists of MC, BWL, AQ, and Naxx ... Ony may be part of it as well, isn't there a Tier 1 piece dropped there?

Tier 2 - and Onyxia can be 4 manned. There's actually a video out there of her being 4 manned on the US live servers. My own guild has 20-manned her (And I believe Gedd's has as well). And before you say that requires "uber progression loots" - it doesn't. It requires attentive players who know the mechanics of the encounter, nothing more. Uber loot helps, but it's not a requirement. Most of MC could be 20-manned at this point as well, though I doubt a 20 man crew could beat Sulfuron, Majordomo, or Ragnaros without drastically outgearing MC.

And yes, it IS about the loot. Progression and loot are the positive feedback elements that keep people playing... and currently the only form of progression at 60 IS the loot.

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "Progression". It doesn't mean what you think it means. Loot is a tool to advance progression, not the other way around.

[SlapBone]

And that's exactly why people are so unselfish and generous when something drops.

"You take it!" "No, you take it!" "Really, I just came for the experience, it's all yours."

"Another week's run without a single drop for my class? No biggie!"

"Bob is looting all the high end materials for himself? Glad they're not going to waste!"

LOL

I was doing some 10th level quests the other day around Brill and teamed up with another Undead warrior. I set the loot to FFA because my pack was almost full and I just wanted to finish the quest. I had died about 3 times in the past 30 minutes. We started killing and this guy was looting everything like a madman. We got almost to the end of the dungeon and this guy was running around like a kid in a candy store. We cleared a room and he had looted every corpse in sight except for one that I was standing on, so I just looted it and scored a nice pair of leggings (green) which happened to be the best drop of the session. Next thing I know he drops group. I scroll up the chat and I see where he said "It not fair" and "I usully rool for itms". I send him a tell asking him "WTF?" and "I let you loot everything for the past 20 minutes ninja boy". He responded with "Not my the ninja"

Ok, as long as not my the ninja we're ok.

[Gedd]

And that's exactly why people are so unselfish and generous when something drops.

Another stereotype, one somewhat deserved. I've seen people pass on things before to lesser equipped folks. I've also seen classes, completely on their own, designate someone as "first dibs" on Tier 2 gear so that they could get to 8/8.

I've also seen folks let clear upgrades rot so they could save DKP for a single piece of uberloot and rip of their class. As I said before, raids aren't generally made up of same-minded individuals...you have people who are there for different reasons. Some think loot > progression, some the other way around.

"Another week's run without a single drop for my class? No biggie!"

That's more frustration with the random loot generator. There's no reason why a progression focused person shouldn't be disappointed when they go a month or two with no drops for their class. Being progression focused and enjoying new gear for yourself or for your class aren't mutually exclusive things.

"Bob is looting all the high end materials for himself? Glad they're not going to waste!"

Almost every raid I know of collects high-end materials in a raid bank and distributes them to the members of the raid as needed.

[Jag]

Exactly what Gedd said. It's why you group up with other, like minded people. Chances are you won't see these people in a pug because they tend to stay together. I've seen some great examples of people helping others, passing on items and just pure generosity. I've also seen the opposite, but those people don't tend to last.

It's one of the 'fun' things about the game that hasn't been mentioned. It's also another reason why MMOs add more than single player games. I actually feel good if i can help one of my friends get something that makes them happy.

[The Mad Hatter]

Our guild doesn't use DKP. The guild officer corps assigns loot according to established rotations. We have our drama moments but I think the system works out much better than DKP.

[Poleaxe]

But does anyone here doubt that drop rates are tied to the time sink model?

[Ibby]

But does anyone here doubt that drop rates are tied to the time sink model?

Of course they are. That and reputation requirements. There's only a finite amount of content. Can't have everyone running around in Tier 3 sets within 1 month after hitting 60.

But with the expansion, Blizzard has shown they're willing to work with the players and will be going to the 'token' drop for the high tier armor sets.

[Koz]

They're even making a Tier 4 set for each build for a particular class. So feral set, balance set, and resto set for druids. That's pretty sweet.

[Ibby]

Yes it is. Win the leggings token, and turn it in for whatever bests suits your playstyle/spec. Shadow Priest? Get your +dmg reward. Holy raid build? Grab your +healing pants.

Win a 2nd leggings token? Grab the other one.

[The Divider]

Someone made a great point about watching TV versus playing online, my wife hates me playing online games because i can't pause it stop it or just log out right now but with any other type of game i can, with Sky+(uk tivo) i can pause, rewind or record right now. So if i want to do anything in the raids generally i need to say please don't interrupt me for 1 hour or 2 hours or even upto 3 or 4. For many people this just isn't what they want while they would still like to be able to continue playing WoW.

I love playing Alterac Valley which normally takes about 60-90 mins but at least i can go hide fi the wife needs me or sit in the cemetary, the problem is it takes another 90mins for the queue to go down, means 3 hours online again.

Many many people would like instances or smaller raids that take an hour or so, the drops don't have to be as good as the longer ones but it would let them log in, group up and play for that hour or 2 they may have to play. Hopefully BC will bring that to the game.

Reemul brings up a key difference between watching TV and raiding. While one can watch a LOT of television in a week, generally it's not done in 4 hour blocks to the exclusion of everything else (including conversation with others) and it's generally interruptable. Raiding requires concentration and attention moreso than television, and the consequence of failing to pay attention and concentrate can be 39 irate guild members whose time is wasted by one member's inattention. Going AFK unscheduled in a raid is a major no-no, whereas getting up from the TV or pausing it doesn't affect 39 other people.

That's why you can't equate raiding and TV watching.

[The Divider]

Someone please explain to me the "time sink" model. Is this another version of the "grind" complaint?

I am always puzzled by people who complaint about WoW (or any other game) being a "grind" or a "time sink". Would those people prefer that there is less content? Would they prefer that there is less to accomplish? Would they like to get to a point where they "win" and there is nothing left to do?