LOST 2 - Smoke and Mirrors: Game Over: Evil Triumphs!

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:35 pm

Brendan wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:But the problem is; we won't know LordMortis faction on his death. How do we go about proving LM's faction IF we were to lynch him?
I feel like the widmorians should declare one person an open spokesperson who can opine on whether or not certain players should be targeted, and then we can just filter from there. What say you, Charles? Send one of your men to the cave, and then they can relay their info through your spokespuppet!

Seems to me that's not too unrealistic an embryo of an idea, since Chaosraven was identified as Widmore by Newcastle:

Newcastle wrote:I've decided.....

in the past hex...i am with lassr & remus
in the present hex I am with lassr and chaosraven

i scanned chaosraven last night...he is playing for team widmore....

discuss....now can ya see my hesitancy ...there is one i can plainly not trust, another who i kind of do...and another who i am unsure on...good times eh!

Care to be the Widmore spokesperson, Chaosraven?

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:37 pm

Lagom Lite wrote:Care to be the Widmore spokesperson, Chaosraven?

It would be a lot easier to threaten him into being spokesmodel.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:43 pm

Remus West wrote:
Lassr wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Lassr wrote:
Remus West wrote:Or are you telling us you already know he is the MiB? .
Simple assumption based on your scan right now. Are you lying?
I missed it. Did Lassr make an assumption that LM is the MiB?
Lassr said we just needed to wait until the lid was off the bottle then kill LordMortis. Which is only true if LordMortis is the MiB. If LordMortis is any other Team Evil member then lynching him bottle open or shut means squat.
which is based on you saying you scanned LM as MiB. Yes, you could be lying.
No, which is based on my scan saying LordMortis is Team Evil. Scans do not give roles. Scans give team affiliation.

read my corrected post below that one...

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:59 pm

Lagom Lite wrote:
theohall wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:After a quick read-through of the thread, some seem to suggest we lynch LordMortis. I don't understand what the case is against him though? Because it seems to be a Widmorean move to make.
Seems to me that I'm the only one suggesting we lynch him and the evidence against him is that I scanned him as Team Evil.

I'm still confused as to how trying to identify the MiB is a Widmore plot. Both sides need to find him and the ONLY way to do that is to attempt to kill him before we pull the plug. Nothing but having him survive a kill attempt will tell us we found the MiB instead of just a random Evil player.
While "innocently" killing random player X while "searching for MiB" from any team besides Team Widmore begins the path to a Team Widmore majority. Which is bad for the Losties given Team Widmore's two goals.
Ok, let me get this straight. Remus claims he scanned Lord Mortis as Evil (MiB). MiB are dangerous. As per standard WW practice, one lynches the scan target, if the target turns up anything other than MiB, Remus will hang next. But the problem is; we won't know LordMortis faction on his death. How do we go about proving LM's faction IF we were to lynch him?

theohall, how can you be so sure LM is not Evil? Because you know he's on your team, hmm? Or do you have a contradictory scan?

I do believe LM is Team Evil. However, Team Widmore is just as dangerous to Losties. Both teams have to eliminate all Candidates. At the moment, there are more Team Widmore members than Team Evil members, so TW is even more dangerous. I don't want Team Widmore to have any chance at getting a majority. When Team Widmore is down 2 members, then we start alternating at taking out Team Evil and Team Widmore. Why? We don't start taking out Widmore now, they will overrun us later. The fact they have sabotaged the EMP station, means they can start blocking us in and forcing us to whichever hexes they choose, once they figure out where we are. Don't give them the chance.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:01 pm

If I had not been made the most recent addition to Team Evil, I would certainly lobby to join Widmore. This Lostie team is screwed.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:46 pm

Chaosraven wrote:If I had not been made the most recent addition to Team Evil, I would certainly lobby to join Widmore. This Lostie team is screwed.

You're welcome

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:57 pm

Unagi wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:If I had not been made the most recent addition to Team Evil, I would certainly lobby to join Widmore. This Lostie team is screwed.
You're welcome

you are LOTS OF HELP (R)(tm)

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:36 pm

theohall wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:After a quick read-through of the thread, some seem to suggest we lynch LordMortis. I don't understand what the case is against him though? Because it seems to be a Widmorean move to make.
Seems to me that I'm the only one suggesting we lynch him and the evidence against him is that I scanned him as Team Evil.

I'm still confused as to how trying to identify the MiB is a Widmore plot. Both sides need to find him and the ONLY way to do that is to attempt to kill him before we pull the plug. Nothing but having him survive a kill attempt will tell us we found the MiB instead of just a random Evil player.
While "innocently" killing random player X while "searching for MiB" from any team besides Team Widmore begins the path to a Team Widmore majority. Which is bad for the Losties given Team Widmore's two goals.

LordMortis is not random player X. He is team Evil. Identifying the MiB is not bad for our goals. It is required. Although you don't care about that at all.

And as always you continue to say killing random folks is bad for us but leave your vote on me.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:37 pm

theohall wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:
theohall wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:After a quick read-through of the thread, some seem to suggest we lynch LordMortis. I don't understand what the case is against him though? Because it seems to be a Widmorean move to make.
Seems to me that I'm the only one suggesting we lynch him and the evidence against him is that I scanned him as Team Evil.

I'm still confused as to how trying to identify the MiB is a Widmore plot. Both sides need to find him and the ONLY way to do that is to attempt to kill him before we pull the plug. Nothing but having him survive a kill attempt will tell us we found the MiB instead of just a random Evil player.
While "innocently" killing random player X while "searching for MiB" from any team besides Team Widmore begins the path to a Team Widmore majority. Which is bad for the Losties given Team Widmore's two goals.
Ok, let me get this straight. Remus claims he scanned Lord Mortis as Evil (MiB). MiB are dangerous. As per standard WW practice, one lynches the scan target, if the target turns up anything other than MiB, Remus will hang next. But the problem is; we won't know LordMortis faction on his death. How do we go about proving LM's faction IF we were to lynch him?

theohall, how can you be so sure LM is not Evil? Because you know he's on your team, hmm? Or do you have a contradictory scan?
I do believe LM is Team Evil. However, Team Widmore is just as dangerous to Losties. Both teams have to eliminate all Candidates. At the moment, there are more Team Widmore members than Team Evil members, so TW is even more dangerous. I don't want Team Widmore to have any chance at getting a majority. When Team Widmore is down 2 members, then we start alternating at taking out Team Evil and Team Widmore. Why? We don't start taking out Widmore now, they will overrun us later. The fact they have sabotaged the EMP station, means they can start blocking us in and forcing us to whichever hexes they choose, once they figure out where we are. Don't give them the chance.

That's new.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:04 pm

Remus West wrote:
theohall wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:
theohall wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:After a quick read-through of the thread, some seem to suggest we lynch LordMortis. I don't understand what the case is against him though? Because it seems to be a Widmorean move to make.
Seems to me that I'm the only one suggesting we lynch him and the evidence against him is that I scanned him as Team Evil.

I'm still confused as to how trying to identify the MiB is a Widmore plot. Both sides need to find him and the ONLY way to do that is to attempt to kill him before we pull the plug. Nothing but having him survive a kill attempt will tell us we found the MiB instead of just a random Evil player.
While "innocently" killing random player X while "searching for MiB" from any team besides Team Widmore begins the path to a Team Widmore majority. Which is bad for the Losties given Team Widmore's two goals.
Ok, let me get this straight. Remus claims he scanned Lord Mortis as Evil (MiB). MiB are dangerous. As per standard WW practice, one lynches the scan target, if the target turns up anything other than MiB, Remus will hang next. But the problem is; we won't know LordMortis faction on his death. How do we go about proving LM's faction IF we were to lynch him?

theohall, how can you be so sure LM is not Evil? Because you know he's on your team, hmm? Or do you have a contradictory scan?
I do believe LM is Team Evil. However, Team Widmore is just as dangerous to Losties. Both teams have to eliminate all Candidates. At the moment, there are more Team Widmore members than Team Evil members, so TW is even more dangerous. I don't want Team Widmore to have any chance at getting a majority. When Team Widmore is down 2 members, then we start alternating at taking out Team Evil and Team Widmore. Why? We don't start taking out Widmore now, they will overrun us later. The fact they have sabotaged the EMP station, means they can start blocking us in and forcing us to whichever hexes they choose, once they figure out where we are. Don't give them the chance.
That's new.

That is the second time I've said it.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Remus West wrote: LordMortis is not random player X. He is team Evil. Identifying the MiB is not bad for our goals. It is required. Although you don't care about that at all.

And as always you continue to say killing random folks is bad for us but leave your vote on me.

That is because you are Team Widmore, which isn't completely random, and why my vote is still on you.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:08 pm

And there was no point in holding back the info about the EMP Station, because Team Widmore already knew about it. After all, they sabotaged it. It's another reason they need to be contained or we won't be moving anywhere as they place barriers all over the island.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:15 pm

theohall wrote:And there was no point in holding back the info about the EMP Station, because Team Widmore already knew about it. After all, they sabotaged it. It's another reason they need to be contained or we won't be moving anywhere as they place barriers all over the island.

hmm, I missed that the first time also. That's not good.

SO I'm back to Scoop of Widmore

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:19 pm

The Will of the People

Lassr acc Scoop20906(1)
theohall acc Remus West(1)
Lassr wd Scoop20906(0)
LordMortis votes to skip(1)
Lassr acc Scoop20906(1)

Votes required to execute or skip: 9

Against Remus West(1): theohall
Against Scoop20906(1): Lassr
Skip(1): LordMortis

No vote registered: Brendan, Chaosraven, J.D., Kenetickid, Lagom Lite, Mr Bubbles, Newcastle, redrun, Remus West, Scoop20906, stessier, tru1cy, Unagi

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

redrun · Post by **redrun** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:31 am

Chaosraven wrote:If I had not been made the most recent addition to Team Evil, I would certainly lobby to join Widmore. This Lostie team is screwed.

-- Well, I might agree with the third part of that sentence. TLL. The Lost Losties. I'm starting to think this is a giant joke: you're all Widmores. Wait. I have an Idea(tm).

Which hex on the board has a hidden machine gun I can use to kill all the other players so as to solve the island by myself?

-- That stupid EMP station. Even if Theo is lying, it's going to be broken real soon now. The Widmores will know most/all of the board by tomorrow. However, even worse - all the MiB has to do is grab himself a Widmore, then the Widmore is going to run to the broadcast station and send the entire board to the MiB TEAM. It gets real ugly then.

-- I wrote up a big writeup yesterday that I somehow didn't post (was really tired) that said we should just skip today - we're in the same boat as yesterday and I don't want to give the Widmores a free kill. However, the Widmores have to be careful - if they kill candidates early, it's that much longer (if ever) before the Heart is found. If they kill Desmond it greatly increases the odds that the Heart will never be removed. If they kill losties too soon, they may give the game to MiB. MiB team would be happy to help the Widmores kill losties - yeah, they don't want to give the lynch vote to team Widmore, but unless the Heart is opened the MiB is safe. He'd love for it to turn into a battle of attrition - he can't die, he gets an attack every night, and if he can get all his minions killed off he goes and gets a new one. Lather, rinse, repeat until team Widmore is empty.

So, ya know what scares me right now Chaos? You do. Not as a Widmore, but as a semi-ex Widmore and all MiB team member tomorrow. That's why I think Newcastle was playing coy - he needed to tell the boss a sure target, but didn't want to be obvious about it. The MiB knows he can trust his henchperson, so he knows Chaos is the new ally he is looking for. Lassr might have given up a real Widmore but Ben just isn't sure about that - right Newcastle?

I don't think team MiB will vote for you. I doubt that team Widmore will vote for you. Maybe I'll learn my allies real soon now.

Chaos

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:09 am

/starts to post....
/starts falling asleep

JD

i would like to hear a bit more from this guy.

will comment more tomorrow.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:41 am

theohall wrote:And there was no point in holding back the info about the EMP Station, because Team Widmore already knew about it. After all, they sabotaged it. It's another reason they need to be contained or we won't be moving anywhere as they place barriers all over the island.

So Team MiB it is for you. You continue to misrepresent what a sabotaged EMP Station means in the hope that everyone will act out of fear. A broken EMP station is a GOOD thing for Team Lostie. If the Widmores had really found it and wanted to screw us, they would have gone there in the Present and set it off. Then we would have been in real trouble as we would never have been able to remove another barrier, but they could have kept putting them up. As it is, we can remove one barrier at a time and continue to use the station as often as we'd like. Yay!

I still think we should skip today, but could probably be talked into theohall.

In the meantime, I'd really like KK to stick around long enough to post.

KineticKid

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:20 am

Read the rules stessier about the station agaon.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:24 am

Chaos

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:53 am

theohall wrote:Read the rules stessier about the station agaon.

The Rules wrote:The SWAN
An electromagnetic containment facility. In the Present, any person entering this station solo may trigger a massive EMP blast that will disable all sonic barriers and disrupt the use of any other facilities in the Present on that night. This destroys the station and renders its hex unnavigable. In the Past, any person entering this station may sabotage the station so that triggering the EMP blast in the Present will no longer be possible. In that case, the station in the Present will allow its user to remotely disable all sonic barriers touching any single hex. (Must leave and re-enter to reuse after sabotage. No limit.)

I believe he is speaking of the colored part, Theohall. You know, the part were it says we get to continually use it rather than the part where it is a one time only thing. Sabotaged Swan is good for us not Widmore.

redrun · Post by **redrun** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:43 am

stessier wrote:
So Team MiB it is for you. You continue to misrepresent what a sabotaged EMP Station means in the hope that everyone will act out of fear. A broken EMP station is a GOOD thing for Team Lostie. If the Widmores had really found it and wanted to screw us, they would have gone there in the Present and set it off. Then we would have been in real trouble as we would never have been able to remove another barrier, but they could have kept putting them up. As it is, we can remove one barrier at a time and continue to use the station as often as we'd like. Yay!

-- <hangs head in shame> I, er, I fear that I also read the EMP station wrong. For some reason I'd thought that after one big blast it did little blasts - not an either/or.

-- Yay for a working station, and a pat on the back to whomever disabled it and enabled us. I wouldn't say that I think Theo is good, but I guess I'm saying that I can understand his mistake, for whatever that is worth.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:19 am

The Will of the People

Lassr acc Scoop20906(1)
theohall acc Remus West(1)
Lassr wd Scoop20906(0)
LordMortis votes to skip(1)
Lassr acc Scoop20906(1)
redrun acc Chaosraven(1)
Newcastle acc J.D.(1)
stessier acc Kenetickid(1)
theohall wd Remus West(0)
theohall acc Chaosraven(2)

Votes required to execute or skip: 9

Against Scoop20906(1): Lassr
Against Chaosraven(2): redrun, theohall
Against J.D.(1): Newcastle
Against Kenetickid(1): stessier
Skip(1): LordMortis

No vote registered: Brendan, Chaosraven, J.D., Kenetickid, Lagom Lite, Mr Bubbles, Remus West, Scoop20906, tru1cy, Unagi

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:52 am

Remus West wrote:
theohall wrote:Read the rules stessier about the station agaon.

The Rules wrote:The SWAN
An electromagnetic containment facility. In the Present, any person entering this station solo may trigger a massive EMP blast that will disable all sonic barriers and disrupt the use of any other facilities in the Present on that night. This destroys the station and renders its hex unnavigable. In the Past, any person entering this station may sabotage the station so that triggering the EMP blast in the Present will no longer be possible. In that case, the station in the Present will allow its user to remotely disable all sonic barriers touching any single hex. (Must leave and re-enter to reuse after sabotage. No limit.)
I believe he is speaking of the colored part, Theohall. You know, the part were it says we get to continually use it rather than the part where it is a one time only thing. Sabotaged Swan is good for us not Widmore.

I am referring to the part where it is no longer possible to remove all barriers at once with the massive blast. Meanwhile, Team Widmore can place up to 6 barriers per night. The most we can remove is one hex worth per day. Do you not see how this can severely impact my team's ability to move around the Island? Only Team Widmore would ignore the implications of this, because they know where they are placing barriers, so they already know in which direction to move. But you wouldn't see this, because it does not affect you, Mr. Widmore.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:57 am

redrun, how are we supposed to remove barriers if we do not know where they are? Also, how do we even get to the Station to remove barriers, if they wall off The Swan? They could wall off the Swan tonight and the only person who could access it would be Sayid. They will probably wall of the airfield, as well. Wouldn't it have been nice to learn where stuff was, get in position, then trigger the massive blast destroying all barriers, so we could actually complete our objectives in spite of Team Widmore's barrier ability? Team Widmore took this away from us. Now, they can funnel us wherever they desire.

Team Widmore is running this show right now, and it is extremely annoying to see folks not realizing it.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:12 am

Remus West wrote:
theohall wrote:Read the rules stessier about the station agaon.

The Rules wrote:The SWAN
An electromagnetic containment facility. In the Present, any person entering this station solo may trigger a massive EMP blast that will disable all sonic barriers and disrupt the use of any other facilities in the Present on that night. This destroys the station and renders its hex unnavigable. In the Past, any person entering this station may sabotage the station so that triggering the EMP blast in the Present will no longer be possible. In that case, the station in the Present will allow its user to remotely disable all sonic barriers touching any single hex. (Must leave and re-enter to reuse after sabotage. No limit.)
I believe he is speaking of the colored part, Theohall. You know, the part were it says we get to continually use it rather than the part where it is a one time only thing. Sabotaged Swan is good for us not Widmore.

Ah, good catch, so it's not completed destroyed.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:21 am

theohall wrote:
Remus West wrote:
theohall wrote:Read the rules stessier about the station agaon.

The Rules wrote:The SWAN
An electromagnetic containment facility. In the Present, any person entering this station solo may trigger a massive EMP blast that will disable all sonic barriers and disrupt the use of any other facilities in the Present on that night. This destroys the station and renders its hex unnavigable. In the Past, any person entering this station may sabotage the station so that triggering the EMP blast in the Present will no longer be possible. In that case, the station in the Present will allow its user to remotely disable all sonic barriers touching any single hex. (Must leave and re-enter to reuse after sabotage. No limit.)
I believe he is speaking of the colored part, Theohall. You know, the part were it says we get to continually use it rather than the part where it is a one time only thing. Sabotaged Swan is good for us not Widmore.
I am referring to the part where it is no longer possible to remove all barriers at once with the massive blast. Meanwhile, Team Widmore can place up to 6 barriers per night. The most we can remove is one hex worth per day. Do you not see how this can severely impact my team's ability to move around the Island? Only Team Widmore would ignore the implications of this, because they know where they are placing barriers, so they already know in which direction to move. But you wouldn't see this, because it does not affect you, Mr. Widmore.

Wait, do the barriers accumulate? If they laid down 6 one night and 6 the next then 12 barriers exist?
I thought they had to remove to put down new ones. But it doesn't appear the rules read that way.

So, if we run into a barrier do we need to announce it so someone can take it down if needed

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:30 am

theohall wrote:redrun, how are we supposed to remove barriers if we do not know where they are? Also, how do we even get to the Station to remove barriers, if they wall off The Swan?

Listen to him! Listen to him!! Wall of the Swan!!! We are all headed there...er, once he tells us where it is. You can capture us all in one fell swoop!

The difference between that and blowing up the station completely for one night of free movement and rendering the hex impassable and then allowing them free use of the barriers until the end of the game - yeah, I can see why you are so up in arms about the situation. Oh wait, no I can't. You really have trouble saying "I was wrong", don't you?

They could wall off the Swan tonight and the only person who could access it would be Sayid. They will probably wall of the airfield, as well.

How many barriers do you think they have? How many would they need to wall off 2 full hexes?

Wouldn't it have been nice to learn where stuff was, get in position, then trigger the massive blast destroying all barriers, so we could actually complete our objectives in spite of Team Widmore's barrier ability? Team Widmore took this away from us. Now, they can funnel us wherever they desire.

Your hysteria is tiring and clearly just for show at this point since the whole thing is moot. Whipping up the masses only serves Team MiB.

Team Widmore is running this show right now, and it is extremely annoying to see folks not realizing it.

They were running it yesterday and will be tomorrow as well. Until a Lostie can find the Comm Station and tell us what they know, we're playing catch up and hoping for the best. Only someone not stumbling around the map blindly would fail to see that.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:32 am

Lassr wrote:Wait, do the barriers accumulate? If they laid down 6 one night and 6 the next then 12 barriers exist?
I thought they had to remove to put down new ones. But it doesn't appear the rules read that way.

So, if we run into a barrier do we need to announce it so someone can take it down if needed

I haven't actually read the barrier rules, but when I commented on them in the pre-game, I suggested Widmore get 12. Grund commented then that he thought that was way too many. So I believe they get 6 total and can move them around as they wish by putting up to 6 up but only taking 3 down per day.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:35 am

stessier wrote:
Lassr wrote:Wait, do the barriers accumulate? If they laid down 6 one night and 6 the next then 12 barriers exist?
I thought they had to remove to put down new ones. But it doesn't appear the rules read that way.

So, if we run into a barrier do we need to announce it so someone can take it down if needed
I haven't actually read the barrier rules, but when I commented on them in the pre-game, I suggested Widmore get 12. Grund commented then that he thought that was way too many. So I believe they get 6 total and can move them around as they wish by putting up to 6 up but only taking 3 down per day.

Ok, that would keep them from boxing us in all over the island.

Grund-Do the barriers accumulate each day?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:43 am

Lassr wrote:Grund-Do the barriers accumulate each day?

Yes.

The Widmore Group may place up to 6 barriers per night across one or both maps, and may remove up to 3 per night across one or both maps.

To be eligible for barrier placement or removal, a hex-side must be
(a) part of a hex where a member of the Widmore Group resides during the day (whether in Past or Present)
(b) not a beach
(c) not already barred

The quota of up to 6 is not per map, but for all maps; the barriers may be used on one or both maps in keeping with the rules mentioned above. Ditto for removal.

The barriers block all passage in both directions to everyone (including members of the Widmore Group) except Sayid.

Charles Widmore has the final say in placement of barriers. In his absence, final say falls on the next person down the page-one roster, and so forth.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:53 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
Lassr wrote:Grund-Do the barriers accumulate each day?
Yes.

The Widmore Group may place up to 6 barriers per night across one or both maps, and may remove up to 3 per night across one or both maps.

To be eligible for barrier placement or removal, a hex-side must be
(a) part of a hex where a member of the Widmore Group resides during the day (whether in Past or Present)
(b) not a beach
(c) not already barred

The quota of up to 6 is not per map, but for all maps; the barriers may be used on one or both maps in keeping with the rules mentioned above. Ditto for removal.

The barriers block all passage in both directions to everyone (including members of the Widmore Group) except Sayid.

Charles Widmore has the final say in placement of barriers. In his absence, final say falls on the next person down the page-one roster, and so forth.

ok then. Removing one per night for us is not good if we found the Swan.
They have to remove them for themselves to pass but they can pretty much trap us in hexes eventually.

If we announce where we find a barrier then it really narrows down where we are currently on the game board to 2 hexes.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:59 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
Lassr wrote:Grund-Do the barriers accumulate each day?
Yes.

The Widmore Group may place up to 6 barriers per night across one or both maps, and may remove up to 3 per night across one or both maps.

To be eligible for barrier placement or removal, a hex-side must be
(a) part of a hex where a member of the Widmore Group resides during the day (whether in Past or Present)
(b) not a beach
(c) not already barred

The quota of up to 6 is not per map, but for all maps; the barriers may be used on one or both maps in keeping with the rules mentioned above. Ditto for removal.

The barriers block all passage in both directions to everyone (including members of the Widmore Group) except Sayid.

Charles Widmore has the final say in placement of barriers. In his absence, final say falls on the next person down the page-one roster, and so forth.

Okay, that's ridiculous. Where the @*#$#& are they finding these barriers? And how can they carry that many?? That's just wrong.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:11 am

stessier wrote: You really have trouble saying "I was wrong", don't you?

Theohall was right. Both Team MiB and Losties should work together to take out the Widmore's. There is no other choice.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:17 am

stessier wrote:Okay, that's ridiculous. Where the @*#$#& are they finding these barriers? And how can they carry that many?? That's just wrong.

It's the power of sound!

I was unsure how high the nightly max should be, so I estimated. It takes 6 to block a landlocked hex, 4 to block a side, and 3 to block a corner. These can be chained instead, which blocks off sections of the island.

Perhaps that's too powerful. After promulgating the rule, I thought of two ways to modify it.

First, it would be better (I think) to have the max # of barriers = the current apparent population of Team Widmore. That way, there would be a penalty as that team shrinks.

Second, it would be better (I think) to have someone empowered to batch-discover where the barriers are. The problem with this is that the placement-adjacency rule would then expose the membership of the Widmore Group.

A third option, of course, would be to enhance the other teams' ability to remove barriers. (e.g., Sayid has the option to remove rather than penetrate any barrier he finds; another station functions the way gimped SWAN functions, etc.)

A fourth option, which I like, is to give the oldest sonic barriers an expiration whenever the total number of barriers is greater than X. That way, it would still be possible to hedge in the Man in Black permanently (as the victory conditions might require), but it would not be possible to turn the Island into a Habitrail™.

I back-burnered these ideas because I didn't want to disrupt the rules. However, I'm open to discussion. I want the game to be enjoyable, and if some tweaking even in midstream is both acceptable to everyone and helpful to the overall experience of the game, I'm not wholly closed to mid-stream changes.

The easiest changes to make would be to make stale barriers expire after they've blocked for two nights. That would not alter powers, rules, characters, or the current state of the game, but would imply a modified strategy for each team.

Please post or PM your thoughts.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:28 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
stessier wrote:Okay, that's ridiculous. Where the @*#$#& are they finding these barriers? And how can they carry that many?? That's just wrong.
It's the power of sound!

I was unsure how high the nightly max should be, so I estimated. It takes 6 to block a landlocked hex, 4 to block a side, and 3 to block a corner. These can be chained instead, which blocks off sections of the island.

Perhaps that's too powerful. After promulgating the rule, I thought of two ways to modify it.

First, it would be better (I think) to have the max # of barriers = the current apparent population of Team Widmore. That way, there would be a penalty as that team shrinks.

Second, it would be better (I think) to have someone empowered to batch-discover where the barriers are. The problem with this is that the placement-adjacency rule would then expose the membership of the Widmore Group.

A third option, of course, would be to enhance the other teams' ability to remove barriers. (e.g., Sayid has the option to remove rather than penetrate any barrier he finds; another station functions the way gimped SWAN functions, etc.)

A fourth option, which I like, is to give the oldest sonic barriers an expiration whenever the total number of barriers is greater than X. That way, it would still be possible to hedge in the Man in Black permanently (as the victory conditions might require), but it would not be possible to turn the Island into a Habitrail™.

I back-burnered these ideas because I didn't want to disrupt the rules. However, I'm open to discussion. I want the game to be enjoyable, and if some tweaking even in midstream is both acceptable to everyone and helpful to the overall experience of the game, I'm not wholly closed to mid-stream changes.

The easiest changes to make would be to make stale barriers expire after they've blocked for two nights. That would not alter powers, rules, characters, or the current state of the game, but would imply a modified strategy for each team.

Please post or PM your thoughts.

I like the "expiration" idea. That's what they get for buying in bulk from the low bidder.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:45 am

Remus West wrote:No, which is based on my scan saying LordMortis is Team Evil. Scans do not give roles. Scans give team affiliation.

Do you want to lynch me because I am evil or do you want to lynch me because I am the MiB?

Chaosraven wrote:If I had not been made the most recent addition to Team Evil, I would certainly lobby to join Widmore. This Lostie team is screwed.

According to Remus, you are welcome.

Oh and all of this talk of the sonic walls. If you are thinking to yourself, maybe I am in a hex with Widmore then I am about to give too much away to help you answer that question. A sonic wall was placed between hex 13 and 16. On my side of that wall I am alone. Being labeled by evil by Remus, you can draw what conclusions you will from that information.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:52 am

LordMortis wrote:A sonic wall was placed between hex 13 and 16. On my side of that wall I am alone.

Noted.

redrun · Post by **redrun** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:58 am

theohall wrote: Wouldn't it have been nice to learn where stuff was, get in position, then trigger the massive blast destroying all barriers, so we could actually complete our objectives in spite of Team Widmore's barrier ability? Team Widmore took this away from us. Now, they can funnel us wherever they desire.

Team Widmore is running this show right now, and it is extremely annoying to see folks not realizing it.

-- So you think Team Widmore broke the station and thus ensured it would be possible for Team Lostie to remove barriers forever (not assured, but possible), as compared to fireing off the blast to take away Team Losties ability to ever remove a barrier for the rest of the game? You also think Team Widmore was going to run around putting up barriers to control the game but ignore the single use EMP blast that would remove them - they'd just leave it alone until we wanted to use it? I'd agree with Stessier that you must be team MiB, if I didn't realize that Team MiB has the same fear of barriers that Team Lostie has. I'm guessing you must be team Widmore, and can't see how it looks from the other side.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:02 pm

redrun wrote:
theohall wrote: Wouldn't it have been nice to learn where stuff was, get in position, then trigger the massive blast destroying all barriers, so we could actually complete our objectives in spite of Team Widmore's barrier ability? Team Widmore took this away from us. Now, they can funnel us wherever they desire.

Team Widmore is running this show right now, and it is extremely annoying to see folks not realizing it.
-- So you think Team Widmore broke the station and thus ensured it would be possible for Team Lostie to remove barriers forever (not assured, but possible), as compared to fireing off the blast to take away Team Losties ability to ever remove a barrier for the rest of the game? You also think Team Widmore was going to run around putting up barriers to control the game but ignore the single use EMP blast that would remove them - they'd just leave it alone until we wanted to use it? I'd agree with Stessier that you must be team MiB, if I didn't realize that Team MiB has the same fear of barriers that Team Lostie has. I'm guessing you must be team Widmore, and can't see how it looks from the other side.

From the time I checked back in theohalls comments have been the most across the board. I agree he must be Team Widmore and is either putting on a show or like you said can't see what it is like on the other side. I think he's putting on a show.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:03 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:To be eligible for barrier placement or removal, a hex-side must be
(a) part of a hex where a member of the Widmore Group resides during the day (whether in Past or Present)
(b) not a beach
(c) not already barred

Grund,
regarding the 2 day expiration on a barrier:

If it's placed on Monday Night, does Monday Night count as the first night of blocking... i.e. Wednesday night - free movement would be returned?