Poker Strategy Discussion

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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

That's a lot of poker! Congrats.

(Are you working during the day, or are you between jobs?)
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paulbaxter
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

SpaceLord wrote:Wooo!

My week in poker:

Saturday, noon, Golden Gates: With 20 people left, I had 1.5 BBs. :doh: I finished 6th for like 160 bucks.

Monday night, Golden Gates: Finished 4th for 350$.

Wednesday night: Chopped the Wacky Wednesday 7PM tourney for 1200 bucks.

Running good!
Dang Judy.

I won a $200 tourney on NLOP this week. Took forever. Everyone on the final table was playing quite cautiously since it was winner takes all.

I was a bit miffed because I came in second in the same sort of tourney last week. Had a huge chip lead on the final table, had about 80% of the chips when we were down to 2, but got outplayed. I wish there was some sort of formula for how to close out heads up when you have a big lead. I suppose I couldn't have done any worse just by closing my eyes and pushing every hand til it was over. My opponent played very aggressively (exactly the way I play when I'm behind in heads up play).
No sig, must scream, etc.
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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

paulbaxter wrote:I was a bit miffed because I came in second in the same sort of tourney last week. Had a huge chip lead on the final table, had about 80% of the chips when we were down to 2, but got outplayed. I wish there was some sort of formula for how to close out heads up when you have a big lead. I suppose I couldn't have done any worse just by closing my eyes and pushing every hand til it was over. My opponent played very aggressively (exactly the way I play when I'm behind in heads up play).
Yeah, being behind by a whopper margin going into heads-up does give that liberating feeling. I like it. :)

Being ahead is much trickier. Even if you've got a 9-1 lead and blinds are (relatively) nothing, and you only push when you think you've got a 60-40 advantage, you still have a 40% chance of being 8-2, and a 16% (one time in six) chance of ending up 6-4 and back into a dogfight. If there are significant blinds (and there always are at this stage!), then you can't wait around for Ax, 22+, and good kings (the 60-40 hands).

That said, heads-up play comes the closest for there actually being a formula to the play. Personally, my feelings are that this is the best time to trot out the exploitative play (play based on your opponent's tendencies) as opposed to sticking to some generalized guidelines. But in the general case, if I end up 75-25 or better, I'm pretty willing to take a risk to shut him out (knowing that I'll still have the chip lead at worst). If you end up much better than that, you can take some seemingly-silly risks.

Had friends over last night to play (including ChrisGrenard from these forums). I'm on a horrible run of late: 0-for-October (with no relief in sight for November). 4 of us were playing a freeze out starting with T400. We all made it through 8 blind levels (or so) before one player dropped. Chips were distributed T550 (me-SB), T500 (BB), T550 (button) at T50/100. Button folds (he's one of those players I want to get heads-up with as he folds more than he should in the end — easy to steamroller). I look down to see AA!! Now I've been playing relatively tight for the first couple of hours this evening, only raising preflop four times, and getting callers three of those times (apparently I'm the fish that everyone wants to dine upon). I decide to embrace variance and just call, hoping to trap the BB later in the hand. He declines his option behind (T200 in the pot). Flop comes :Qd: :9h: :7d: . Too scary for me to continue with my trapping idea and give out a possible free card so I make a pot-sized bet. He ponders and raises all-in. I call. He shows :Jd: :9d: for middle pair and a flush draw, a 14-outer. He gets the :9s: on the turn, and makes 9s full of J's on the river. I'm down to 50 chips and get what I deserve for trying to trap a friend while holding aces.

Next hand I'm dealt 55 on the button. SB folds, BB is in for half price and shows :9d: :5d: . I'm thinking domination! Of course, the nine burns me again, this time plunging the dagger into me on the flop (much kinder than the turn!). I'm out in 3rd place.

I've got six weeks' worth of tournament stories with similar plot lines. Grrr....
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

The Meal wrote:That's a lot of poker! Congrats.

(Are you working during the day, or are you between jobs?)
"Working", yes. I've been at the Citi project for a few weeks now, we finally go to actually do stuff this week.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

My crazy run continues today, as I take down the noon tourney at the Golden Gates for 2400. That's 4100 profit in 8 days and over 8k since early October. :ninja:

Sick, sick run in November so far.
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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Pretty fantastic!

I think that we (me and ChrisGrenard, who has been on a hot run of his own of late) are heading up for (at least) the noon tournament at the Gates on Saturday. If there are any other local fOOlks interested in joining forces, post in here or send me a PM. We could go up on Sunday as well/instead. (Final plans TBD.)
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

The Meal wrote:Pretty fantastic!

I think that we (me and ChrisGrenard, who has been on a hot run of his own of late) are heading up for (at least) the noon tournament at the Gates on Saturday. If there are any other local fOOlks interested in joining forces, post in here or send me a PM. We could go up on Sunday as well/instead. (Final plans TBD.)
Good luck up there. I think I've said it before, but the Sunday noon tourney is better: the Saturday noon tourney has a pretty huge blind jump at about the 6th level, I wonder if it's there to get more people to bust and play in the 3PM.... :ninja:
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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Yeah, but Sunday is, well... Sunday. That's football day. :)

Good luck in Vegas!
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

Sumbitch.

The Vegas trip was a interesting time.

Drive up: Snowed like a mofo near the Eisenhower tunnel. I decided to drive because I've never actually been to Utah or Arizona, there was great scenery the whole way. I doubt I'll do it again, tho. Especially solo.

Stayed downtown, the El Cortez is better than I thought it would be. And they're giving away two free nights if you stay two nights in November. Dunno if I can justify going back down there before year's end, however.

The tourney itself:
550$ entry
295 runners
1st was 41kish

I have lately had a knack for somehow chipping up without having cards, which is great.

I struggle through being card dead, my resteals are working. With 36 left (27 get paid), I finally get a hand in the UTG+1 seat: KK. I'm around 75% of average, the chips are remarkably evenly distributed, the chip leader has a bit over 3x my stack. I raise to my standard w/ antes, 2.5BBs. The shortish, aggressive SB shoves. The BB, who has me covered, shoves as well. I can't fold, and am relieved to see 22 and QQ.

The board comes out:

JT59.....8

Busto. Had I won that hand, I would have been 4th or so in chips(1st at my table), and everyone had already tightened up. I could have stolen like mad.

Oh well. I am most definitely heading back down there in February when the Venetian has the first Super Stack tourney of 09. It was a great tourney. Free buffet, too.
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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

That's a frustrating bust-out, but sounds like a pretty good experience overall. When CG and I were talking about you driving out there, I assumed that you were not going alone. That's a long haul for one driver.

I had a tough bust-out in the GG's Saturday 3pm tournament. (Had a tough bust-out in the noon as well, though I got what I deserved in that one, running my JJ into QQ and AA!) They capped the tournament at 3 tables because every other seat in the room was filled (either the noon tournament, 2-5, 5-5, or Omaha). CG and I got seated at the same table (again -- same thing happened in the 6-table noon tournament). Other than him, it seemed like a cakewalk table. Dude in seat 2 had managed to chip up by raising any semblance of a scary board. When my open-ended straight-flush draw missed (me holding :Jh: :8h: ) I folded on the river to his bet and said, as is my wont, "nice hand." He replied with trepidation and curiousity: "I was just holding two cards." I held my look at his face for an extra (uncomfortable) beat, and he repeated "just two cards." He was either the worlds greatest actor, or he remembered one piece of advice prior to coming up to play: "be the aggressor." He was regularly betting T125 as flop bets into pots holding T800, etc. Didn't seem to be able to tell the difference between the light blue T25 chips and the purple T100 chips (though his lead-out bets were sized as he desired, eventually he caught on to the color differences and would announce "one twenty-five" when he'd put 'em in the pot). I don't think I saw him fold, nor show down cards, but the rest of the table was pretty passive. (CG got moved over to an adjacent table rather early on.) Other players at the table were weakies, with possibly one exception to my right (I was in seat 6).

From UTG, seat 2 limps for T100. Folded to me in seat 6 to see the two pointy aces (suit combinations in my mind are either "red" "black" "rounded" hearts and clubs, or "pointy" spades and diamonds) :As: :Ad: . I raise to T300. Got two callers and UTG also called (pot: T1250). Flop comes down a nearly perfect :Kc: :7h: :2h: . BB checks, UTG leads out for T150. I make a small raise to T750. Riff-raff folds and UTG goes into the tank before calling (pot: 2750). Turn comes an innocent :Ts: . UTG bets T400 (!!!). I pause and contemplate. It's possible he's got a set. It's possible he's got a really weird two pair. But based on his play so far, the number of hands he's been involved with and his comment after the one hand he and I shared together, I get a strong vibe that I could easily get him to call an overbet with a hand that I beat. You know how sometimes you just "get that feeling?" That feeling filled me right up. So I shoved my last T6200(ish -- he had me covered by a few thousand). He paused, contemplated, and finally called. And revealed that my feeling was spot on. :Kd: :5d: Couldn't get away from top pair no kicker. No draw (unless he thought a flush just needed five cards of the same color).

I silently walked out of the room when the :5s: hit the river.

I know it was a five-outer, but that was the worst-feeling beat I've taken. I trapped a weakie, made an advanced play based on how I thought he'd react, and then got blindsided by the Poker Gods. Hopefully that guy took first place, as I'd love for someone like him to get hooked on the game. :)
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Ninyu
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by Ninyu »

Oof. Awful. :doh:
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

One other interesting thing about the Vegas tourney:

I got to play with Tommy Vu and Teddy "The Iceman" Monroe. Yes, Teddy is that grating even when not on camera. Both were solid players, however. :ninja:
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SlyFrog
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SlyFrog »

This isn't strategy, and this is admittedly coming from an guy who just plays for shits and giggles (I've managed to bring my $50 PokerStars account up to $75 playing the micro tables for a couple of months a few hours a week - watch out Amarillo Slim).

But I have to share what just happened to me, as it is too painful.

9 person table. I was on the button, dealt A4o.

Pretty heavy betting (for a micro table) prior to me, so I folded.

Flop, turn, and river turn out to be 7AA77.

Painful enough. Until I looked more closely at my hand.

IT WASN'T A4o. IT WAS AA!

ARGGGHHHHH!

I'm actually somehow more upset at the fact that I folded a quad Aces hand than I am at the fact that I am probably going blind. :lol:
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

I heard a certain forum redhead once mistook A4 for AA. Which can be worse, kinda. :lol:
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

The Meal:

I mentioned to you recently a new suite of tools PokerXFactor has released, and I've began to really use it a lot, and find it helpful. It's only available to subscribers, but here is a screenshot of the Reshove tool:

Image

It allows you to solve EV problems like this:

You have 1950 chips in the Cutoff. The blinds are 200/400. A EP player limps, they have you covered. You believe they are limping the top 20% of hands. You think they will call with half of those hands. The players to act behind you, let's say they call your shove with the top 8% of hands.

Do you shove? If it's not +EV to shove, what hands are worth it?

Plugging the values into the calculator:

Reshoving is +582 chips.
You need to have a winning chance of around 15% to shove. Only severely dominated hands are below this.

If you just change the limp to a min raise, you can shove any two cards, due to the chance they have the 10% range they will fold, the percentages drop to 8.3%.

Awesome stuff
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Zork
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by Zork »

In an effort to keep the poker talk going, what tools/sites do you guys use or recommend?

I have used SharkScope as a guest to look up an opponent when I'm heads up or in the money, but I find I alter my play and get more nervous (especially against better players). I would almost rather take the "ignorance is bliss" approach and play the way I normally do.

I also know there are some apps that overlay player info onto the game window. Has anyone had any experice with those? I'm assuming those are used more for cash ring games. Since I play only STTs and MTTs it may not be that benefical.

-Zork
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SpaceLord
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

Zork wrote:In an effort to keep the poker talk going, what tools/sites do you guys use or recommend?

I have used SharkScope as a guest to look up an opponent when I'm heads up or in the money, but I find I alter my play and get more nervous (especially against better players). I would almost rather take the "ignorance is bliss" approach and play the way I normally do.

I also know there are some apps that overlay player info onto the game window. Has anyone had any experice with those? I'm assuming those are used more for cash ring games. Since I play only STTs and MTTs it may not be that benefical.

-Zork
PokerTracker and PokerAceHUD work well in concert.

Sharkscope, on the other hand, is not allowed at PokerStars. They have an explicit policy saying that you may not visit the SS site while the client is open, I know they have been sending warning letters lately, but I don't think anyone has been punished yet.
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Zork
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by Zork »

SpaceLord wrote:PokerTracker and PokerAceHUD work well in concert.

Sharkscope, on the other hand, is not allowed at PokerStars. They have an explicit policy saying that you may not visit the SS site while the client is open, I know they have been sending warning letters lately, but I don't think anyone has been punished yet.
That's interesting...any idea why it's banned there?

I play about 90% of my games on Full Tilt. The other 10% is played on Bodog or Ultimate Bet when I'm bored with FTP.

I haven't played on PS for a few months now (after I finished my bonus whoring requirements :)).

-Zork
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by Zork »

Hello all...

I wanted to ask some advice on some hands I played tonight. Actually, there will be a few, but I'll do one hand at a time. This is an 18-player MTT and we're in the middle stages (around 12-13 people left). Here's hand #1:

Full Tilt Poker Sit & Go No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t60/t120 Blinds - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: t3620
MP: t690
CO: t2885
BTN: t1075
SB: t2310
Hero (BB): t1915

Pre Flop: (t180) Hero is BB with :6h: :5c:
4 folds,
SB calls t60,
Hero checks

Flop: (t240) :4c: :4d: :8d: (2 players)
SB checks,
Hero bets t120,
SB calls t120

Turn: (t480) :Ah: (2 players)
SB checks,
Hero checks

River: (t480) :5h: (2 players)
SB bets t480,
Hero does what?

Okay, what do you guys do in that position? I don't have a lot of info on the SB, I was multi-tabling and wasn't paying too much attention. To be honest, I was also playing a little LOTRO on the side :oops: .

Looking back, I think I should have made another bet on the turn of 1/2-2/3 the pot. The :Ah: was a scare card, but I could have used that to my advantage. I didn't think the SB would call my 1/2 pot bet after the flop with just ace high.

Feel free to criticize my play...I know it needs some work. :)

If you want I can go into a little more detail on why I played each step the way I did.

-Zork
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The Meal
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

That one's a coin flip. I like your play to that point (including the turn check - [edit:]actually after the check-call sequence by the SB on the flop, I'd be more inclined to bet again here after he checked the turn, but it wouldn't be an automatic play by any means[/edit]). In the absence of information about the SB, I'd be inclined to fold and find a better spot to get those chips. Chances are that you're ahead, but I wouldn't put >25% of your stack on it.
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paulbaxter
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

I've had a few hands pretty much like the one you describe. One option, of course, would have been to raise the flop first. This would have (possibly) sent the message that you had "something". Had you done that, then you would have been in a great position to raise on the A. Your opponent checking and then betting the river would indicate to me that he was slowplaying, in which case your best option in hindsight would have been to not bet at all. By river time there are only four things to think about your opponent's hand: he has a 4, an A, a 5, or is just bluffing (possibly with something like KJ). Three out of four of those you lose (unless he had 53 or 52). You have to fold there IMHO. In my experiences online it is pretty rare to see this betting pattern unless the player has a big hand at the river.

To me, the problem is the small flop raise. It gives you no information at all. Most of the time I would have checked that flop. If I thought my opponent was someone who would fold to a bluff I would bet about twice what you did.

One of my favorite slogans for online play is "NEVER bluff a player who calls too much."

Anyhow, just my opinion, of course. I've played similar hands exactly like you did on occasion. Rarely worked out well for me.
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SlyFrog
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SlyFrog »

I promise (mostly) not to do this again. I know, if everyone showed interesting poker hands, we'd be flooded with pictures.

But having been at the table for this one (and fortunately avoiding being mauled by it), I had to take a screen shot and post it - it is beautiful.

Image
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

I had my first straight flush about 3 weeks ago. It turned out to be a royal. Within the context it wasn't actually nearly as exciting as I thought it would be. Probably would be different if I was playing draw poker or something.
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SlyFrog
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SlyFrog »

paulbaxter wrote:I had my first straight flush about 3 weeks ago. It turned out to be a royal. Within the context it wasn't actually nearly as exciting as I thought it would be. Probably would be different if I was playing draw poker or something.
I always thought that would probably be the case.

What I particularly found fascinating about the one above is not that it is just a straight flush (which I had seen before, and probably would not have posted just because of that).

It's because the entire board made one big straight flush from six through queen. On top of that, one of the other players had Ace of clubs, giving him what he probably thought was top flush and missing a royal by one card in its own right.

Odds of a straight flush are low enough - the odds of having a seven card suited straight are amazing I would imagine. :)
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Live game. $115 buy in. 10 person SNG. Top two finishers get paid $500 each. Initial chips = T2500. Blinds start at T25/T50 and basically double every 12 minutes (from memory: i. T25/50, ii. T50/100, iii. T100/200, iv. T200/400, v. T300/600, vi. T500/1000, vii. T1000/2000). NLHE.

Play a conservative game through the first 3 levels. Don't show down a single hand, but manage to maintain chips. Play a bit more aggressively for the next two levels, and again manage to chip up only showing premium hands or by a combination of good reads and good bluffs. With five left, get caught with "hand in cookie jar" (or the live-game equivalent!) raising to T1250 on button (blinds at T200/400), and get called by BB — coincidentally all-in for T1250 — with 77. Suck out with an ace on the river. Gain chip lead. Build chip lead over the next level, but no more aggressive than any of two other players at the table.

With roughly T10,000, levels having just become T1000/2000, there are a total of four players at the table:
me: perceived as aggressive (but certainly not maniacal), T10,000
one to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5000 (T1000 of which is in the SB)
two to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5500 (T2000 of which is in the BB)
one to my right: probably too-tight, with roughly T4500, players on either side of me are obviously friends and are soft-playing each other.

UTG (tight player to my right) folds, on the button I see :Kc: :Tc:, what's my play?
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paulbaxter
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

The Meal wrote:Live game. $115 buy in. 10 person SNG. Top two finishers get paid $500 each. Initial chips = T2500. Blinds start at T25/T50 and basically double every 12 minutes (from memory: i. T25/50, ii. T50/100, iii. T100/200, iv. T200/400, v. T300/600, vi. T500/1000, vii. T1000/2000). NLHE.

Play a conservative game through the first 3 levels. Don't show down a single hand, but manage to maintain chips. Play a bit more aggressively for the next two levels, and again manage to chip up only showing premium hands or by a combination of good reads and good bluffs. With five left, get caught with "hand in cookie jar" (or the live-game equivalent!) raising to T1250 on button (blinds at T200/400), and get called by BB — coincidentally all-in for T1250 — with 77. Suck out with an ace on the river. Gain chip lead. Build chip lead over the next level, but no more aggressive than any of two other players at the table.

With roughly T10,000, levels having just become T1000/2000, there are a total of four players at the table:
me: perceived as aggressive (but certainly not maniacal), T10,000
one to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5000 (T1000 of which is in the SB)
two to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5500 (T2000 of which is in the BB)
one to my right: probably too-tight, with roughly T4500, players on either side of me are obviously friends and are soft-playing each other.

UTG (tight player to my right) folds, on the button I see :Kc: :Tc:, what's my play?
With blinds at that level it seems to be pretty much a crap shoot/card catching contest. I don't know if this is wise or not, but my inclination would be to limp and hope. You have a well above average hand. OTOH, the remaining players (any of them) are in a position to go all-in on nearly anything. I'm not sure it makes much difference if you push pre-flop, limp and wait, or bet the flop no matter what it is. In theory you come out well if you can bet and get someone to fold pre-flop, but it's hard to say. In other words, whatever you did, I'm sure you did fine :)
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

The Meal wrote:Live game. $115 buy in. 10 person SNG. Top two finishers get paid $500 each. Initial chips = T2500. Blinds start at T25/T50 and basically double every 12 minutes (from memory: i. T25/50, ii. T50/100, iii. T100/200, iv. T200/400, v. T300/600, vi. T500/1000, vii. T1000/2000). NLHE.

Play a conservative game through the first 3 levels. Don't show down a single hand, but manage to maintain chips. Play a bit more aggressively for the next two levels, and again manage to chip up only showing premium hands or by a combination of good reads and good bluffs. With five left, get caught with "hand in cookie jar" (or the live-game equivalent!) raising to T1250 on button (blinds at T200/400), and get called by BB — coincidentally all-in for T1250 — with 77. Suck out with an ace on the river. Gain chip lead. Build chip lead over the next level, but no more aggressive than any of two other players at the table.

With roughly T10,000, levels having just become T1000/2000, there are a total of four players at the table:
me: perceived as aggressive (but certainly not maniacal), T10,000
one to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5000 (T1000 of which is in the SB)
two to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5500 (T2000 of which is in the BB)
one to my right: probably too-tight, with roughly T4500, players on either side of me are obviously friends and are soft-playing each other.

UTG (tight player to my right) folds, on the button I see :Kc: :Tc:, what's my play?
2 players to act. What will they call your shove with?

Top 10%(77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo)? Your EV from shoving is +2062 chips.
Top 8%? (88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+) Your EV from shoving is +2,181 chips

But since both blinds are really short, let's extend that range to 30%(55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o)
Your EV then becomes 2608 chips. Are they really gonna call with K5s? T9o? Hard to tell.

Two factors are opposed here: you are 1 from the bubble, and both players to act need to double up now.

Even if both blinds are only calling with top 8% hands, shoving is still a + chip EV play. Another factor in your favor is that both blinds and the UTG player are short, and they might wait for exceptional hands to make a move, hoping the other busts first. In C. Moshman's book, he discusses a strategy to extend the bubble when you are the big stack. If all 3 other players are in danger of busting, then they will generally let you steal more than normal, hoping to outlast the others. Occasionally letting the shortest stack have the blinds unopposed is part of that strategy.

So, I suggest closing your eyes and shoving! Winning the blinds this hand gives you almost a 3:1 chip advantage, and you still don't have to pay the blinds for 1 more hand.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

I didn't contemplate the limp play. If I'm below 5 big blinds, I don't even consider that play, unless my opponents have happily allowed the high blind limps all night long. None of the three opponents at the table (including the tight guy) were such players.

I (figuratively) closed my eyes and shoved. The SB responded with "you're the one guy we don't want to call," and paused (looking for a reaction, I'm sure — none was forthcoming). After 20 seconds, he folded. The BB thought for less time before he called and showed A7o, which held up. :(

From my now-shortstacked position in life, I was able to steal a few hands (earning me another orbit) , but not improve my chip position. None of the cards I was dealt would have won a single showdown out of the last three orbits. 4th place went out when he (the tight guy) was in the BB and called his buddy's button All-In and got his :Ah: :Th: beat by some random Q9o. His buddy was extremely apologetic, but that's the nature of the game when the blinds are that high. I went out on the bubble on the following hand, my two opponents pretty evenly splitting about T22000, and me having T1000 behind my big blind. When I turned over my cards they were :8c: :5d: and they didn't get any better.

Frustrating way to go out, but when the blinds get high, all you can hope to do is to have a seat at the table, and if you're good (holding twice as many chips as any of your opponents) maybe you'll have to face a double-elimination before you'd get knocked out. There's certainly no sure things that late in the game.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

I really don't know what would constitute the "best" analysis of that hand. On the site where I play I've played quite a few 5 man sit n go's. K 10 is exactly the sort of hand I would limp with with 5 players. It can be profitable if it hits, it might conceivably win high card, but isn't that great against anything your opponent might typically play. If your opponents almost always raise pre-flop, then you don't really have the option, but I think limping has it's place, particularly on that sort of hand. Just my own opinion.

Edit: wanted to add that with 4 or 5 people in a game is typically (in my experience) when a lot of weird stuff happens. Gets much simpler with 3 and 2 where K 10 is pretty much a monster hand.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Like I said, below 5 BBs, I typically don't limp unless I'm at a table of folks who allow high-blind limping, or if only folks who will act after me frequently allow the move and there's already a limper ahead. If you're sub-5BBs, you really need to double-up, not incrementally win an additional blind or two. Winning a blind or two generally earns you another 4-8 starting hands (or so, depending on how many folks are left) which is an orbit or an orbit-and-a-half. That's certainly not nothing, but better to win those things by taking the chips preflop (without your opponents having a chance to match the flop cards), then by the limp-hit-a-flop play. If you're already putting 20%+ of your stack into the pot, you're dangerously close to pot-committed. Limp-folding-to-a-bad-flop in that situation is disasterous to your ability to earn enough chips to bounce back. (A double-up+blinds at 4BB is a whole lot better than a double up+blinds at 3BB.)

I would agree with your difficulty in coming up with a "best" analysis, especially considering the end-of-game bubble nature of things. The ideal conditions for limping with a KTs type hand are: stacks of 20+BB, limpers on which you'd have position, passive players acting afterwards, and opponents who make bad post-flop decisions. I'm not seeing much of that ideal in this situation (other than the pseudo-connected suited broadway cards constituting your hand).
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

The Meal wrote:Like I said, below 5 BBs, I typically don't limp unless I'm at a table of folks who allow high-blind limping, or if only folks who will act after me frequently allow the move and there's already a limper ahead. If you're sub-5BBs, you really need to double-up, not incrementally win an additional blind or two. Winning a blind or two generally earns you another 4-8 starting hands (or so, depending on how many folks are left) which is an orbit or an orbit-and-a-half. That's certainly not nothing, but better to win those things by taking the chips preflop (without your opponents having a chance to match the flop cards), then by the limp-hit-a-flop play. If you're already putting 20%+ of your stack into the pot, you're dangerously close to pot-committed. Limp-folding-to-a-bad-flop in that situation is disasterous to your ability to earn enough chips to bounce back. (A double-up+blinds at 4BB is a whole lot better than a double up+blinds at 3BB.)

I would agree with your difficulty in coming up with a "best" analysis, especially considering the end-of-game bubble nature of things. The ideal conditions for limping with a KTs type hand are: stacks of 20+BB, limpers on which you'd have position, passive players acting afterwards, and opponents who make bad post-flop decisions. I'm not seeing much of that ideal in this situation (other than the pseudo-connected suited broadway cards constituting your hand).
I hear ya. Could folding then be the most optimal play? It's just hard to make any sort of reasoned judgments when the blind levels are quite high. It becomes a matter of who hits the flop/board and who doesn't.

Still learning this game, and always glad to throw around ideas for improving.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

The other thing to consider is that if you're the first one all-in, you'd much rather get called if you had 75 than if you had KJ (it's doubtful that a 75 would be dominated by a hand that calls, while odds are pretty good that someone's got your top card as their kicker when you've got KJ).

Folding could be a legitimate option (and was one I considered), but SpaceLord's analysis shows mathematically why it'd be the inferior play.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

The Meal:

I've been in Oklahoma for the Holidays, and have been busy since I got back last Friday.

However, I have been on an absolute heater since Thanksgiving, and, really, since October.

Eight weekends in a row, I have won or chopped at least one tournament in Black Hawk. Two of those weeks, I chopped two tournaments. Saturday, I won the noon at the Gates. Yesterday, we chopped the noon at the Gates again. Today, we chopped the 3PM at the Gates. :shock:

Let's hope my streak continues this weekend; the Colorado Poker Championship is at the Gilpin Saturday and Sunday. There will be around 150 players, with an expected prize pool of 80-100k.

:horse:
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

Colorado Poker Championship Tournament Report

Or, how "small ball" can get you nearly there.

From October until early January, the Gilpin Casino in Black Hawk Colorado ran 6 qualifier tournaments a week, where a portion of the prize pool was rolled into a 50k guaranteed "Colorado Poker Championship" held Saturday, January 10 and Sunday, January 11th. The top two finishers in each tournament won a seat.

Having won my seat on my first try in October, I headed up to Black Hawk, elevation 8537 feet above sea level.

The Rocky Mountains appeared ominous as I approached:

Image

As I got closer, the spooky scene was a bit more encouraging:

Image

Even though the air temperature was well above freezing in Clear Creek canyon, the waterfalls were solid:

Image

After gaining several thousand feet of elevation, I arrived at the Gilpin:

Image

The tournament structure was:

162 players
30,000 starting chips
30 minute levels
First day concludes once 60 players remain, or 14 levels have been reached.
Much to my disappointment, there we no antes at all.

My first table was fairly passive and tight, save for a couple players who couldn't lay down top pair, and they busted fairly quickly, but not to me.

I picked up AK a few times, and, with re-steals, built my stack to about 55k.

In the BB, I found AQ. Three limpers were shoved by a small stack with less than 5 BBs. To push the limpers out, I raised to 15BBs, and found the short stack had A8o, and I got quite a few chips.

In another hand, I got 88 in the BB. A conservative player to my left raised, and I was the 3rd caller. The flop came an interesting 678, 2 suits. I knew the original raiser had big cards, and I was positive he had not flopped a straight, so I led out for 2/3 the pot, to see who would call. Only the button called. The turn was a offsuit 3, and I bet 1/2 the pot, and the button called quickly behind. The river came a beautiful 6, putting 3 hearts on the board. I considered check-raising, instead, I lead weakly, putting a bit under half my stack in the pot, hoping for a call. Instead, the button folded, saying he had pocket Aces. This river bet might have been a mistake on my part, I was clearly pot-commited, and the all-in move would hopefully have looked like desperation. C'est la vie.

Since I had not received a single pair above 99 for 5 hours, I was forced to play any AQ+ hand aggressively, and this often worked out. A few minutes before the end of day 1, I raised AKs from the button, and the BB instantly shoved, and I had him covered by around 5BBs. I decided I was going to enter day 2 as a chip leader, or not come back at all. Thankfully, he rolled over AQ and I finished the day in the top 10 in chips, with 132k chips in my bag.

After a night's sleep, I made the 45 mile trek back up the Rockies for Day 2.

My lack of big hands meant I was folding a lot. My poker buddy ended up to my left as the field dwindled to around 28 players, with 21 getting paid.

An interesting hand came up at this point: My friend was telling the other side of the table he was tired of getting his BB stolen. It was then folded around to me, and I had around 90k chips, and found myself with

:as :ts:

I told my buddy that we would play some poker, and just limped. Of course, if any Ace flopped I was going nowhere. Quickly glancing at his cards, he checked.

The flop came:

:Kd: :Qs: :Jh:

I, of course, checked, and I hear the magic words: "All-in." I call, announce I have the nuts, and my buddy groans as he rolls over KJo. I dodge his 4 outs, and double up.

As the bubble is reached, I shove AQo and AJo, since no one at my table wants to play, and take it down preflop.

Much later, at 21 people exactly, it is again folded to my SB, when I have A8o. With only 9 BBs, I shove, and this same buddy of mine rolls over QQ, and I bust in 21st place for 450 bucks.

A recap of what I got during this tournament:

AA: 0 times
KK: 0 times
QQ: 0 times
JJ: 0 times
TT: 0 times

That's right, no pairs above a 9 in over ten hours of play.

:roll: I was never all-in with a caller until my final hand. My philosophy of controlling the pot, raising with suited connectors occasionally, small ball poker allowed me to chip up while being card dead. It's a hard style to play, and I really, really hate being forced to re-raise with AK so many times, but I was getting no good hole cards.

Hope you all enjoyed reading my report!
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

Nicely done. Be glad your bad luck came at 21 rather than 22 :)
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by Zork »

Nice job. Thanks for sharing :)

I love reading poker AARs on here when work is slow.

-Zork
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by SpaceLord »

paulbaxter wrote:Nicely done. Be glad your bad luck came at 21 rather than 22 :)
Definitely true, I would have been pretty angry.

The "small-ball" style I've been playing lately is very difficult. I mean, when you raise with :7d: :8d: from middle position, and you get 2 callers, do you C-bet if you miss the flop? With "standard" poker(Harrington), you're not going to be raising with these kind of hands very often.

These kinds of raises have the following advantages:

1. If the players don't think/know you will raise with 78s, if an Ace flops, they will probably put you on AJ+, and respect that bet.
2. If you do hit the flop, or a big draw, these same unknowing players might raise you. And since many players seem to think(mostly wrongly) that min-raising a C-bet will produce a fold, you can extract value if you hit your hand on the turn, probably with a significant check raise.

An example:
Blinds are 100/200, you have 10k chips.

You raise to 500 with :7d: :8d: and get 2 callers, one from behind you, the other from the BB.

The flop comes: :6d: :9h: :Qd:

The BB checks, and. with 1600 in the pot, you bet 800. Believing you do not have a Q, the player behind you raises to 1600(it happens a *lot* in live tourneys.) The BB quickly folds, and you manage a grimace as you call. It costs you 800 chips to win the 3900 in the middle, it's an easy call.

If the turn brings any diamond, or any 5 or 10(17 outs), you can check, and hope for a bet from the other player. If he bets, let's say around 1/2 the pot, 1800, you can shove, especially if the turn was your straight card. If you win the pot there, your stack increases by 35%, and if you get called, you can double up, I would venture more than half the time, unless you think the other player was semi-bluffing the nut flush draw.
Once the other players know you raise more hands than normal, things get interesting. Some players will re-raise just to push you out. If you don't like the re-raise, and will be out of position, you need to fold, and wait for a better shot. It's the most fun when you catch a hand like Kings or Aces, and you smooth call the raise from the blinds. :pop:

The small ball style is for players who aren't afraid to play "marginal" cards, and excel at postflop decisions, nothing is more crucial to this style.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by paulbaxter »

SpaceLord wrote:
The "small-ball" style I've been playing lately is very difficult. I mean, when you raise with :7d: :8d: from middle position, and you get 2 callers, do you C-bet if you miss the flop? With "standard" poker(Harrington), you're not going to be raising with these kind of hands very often.
Yeah, I haven't really developed that play--raising with suited connectors. As I'm sitting here thinking about your question of the continuation bet, I imagine it has a lot to do with what sort of plausible story you can tell and what you think your opponents will believe.

For example, if you get to play the SB or BB cheap and you get a 2 6 9 flop, its often pretty easy to pick that up even if it missed you. If, however, your opponents know you'll play odd hands they might be happy to jump in with you with any decent pair. I suppose that mostly comes down to how well you can read them--how they tend to react, what hands you think they'll play, what hands they think you'll play, texture of the flop, etc.

But you know all that. I'm just rambling.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Congrats on the cash finish. Bummer you didn't go deeper. Cool with the photos! :)
SpaceLord wrote: The "small-ball" style I've been playing lately is very difficult. I mean, when you raise with :7d: :8d: from middle position, and you get 2 callers, do you C-bet if you miss the flop? With "standard" poker(Harrington), you're not going to be raising with these kind of hands very often.
I change gears into a small-ball style, though it's not my SOP. When deciding to continuation bet, I use flop texture. An ace on the flop gives a lot of credibility to the first raiser, so I generally do bet out if I do see that card. (Preflop callers could easily also have an ace, but they could also be "only" calling with lots of other hands, such as TT or the like.)
1. If the players don't think/know you will raise with 78s, if an Ace flops, they will probably put you on AJ+, and respect that bet.
2. If you do hit the flop, or a big draw, these same unknowing players might raise you. And since many players seem to think(mostly wrongly) that min-raising a C-bet will produce a fold, you can extract value if you hit your hand on the turn, probably with a significant check raise.
Yep, and that's the reason you're doing it. Small ball is a gear I shift into not because I'm wanting to pick up more antes, but because I'm in a hand against folks who I think would pay me off with their whole stack were they to hit TPTK (and I were to *hit* my small-ball hand).

The minraise of a continuation bet is rampant, and presents some very nice opportunities.
An example:
That's a pretty best-case example, but definitely appropriate. You squeeze value out of small-ball hands on the turn and river with other plays as well.
Once the other players know you raise more hands than normal, things get interesting. Some players will re-raise just to push you out. If you don't like the re-raise, and will be out of position, you need to fold, and wait for a better shot. It's the most fun when you catch a hand like Kings or Aces, and you smooth call the raise from the blinds. :pop:
It definitely opens the game up for trapping, especially if the gear you're shifting from is more of an ABC-style game (which doesn't really lend itself to trapping at all). As a beginner/early-intermediate, I tried playing trappy, and quickly received feedback (in terms of losing!) that cured me of that fault. Now that I've got a well-balanced whole-game strategy, having those occasional opportunities to trap has really cranked up the fun factor again. :D
The small ball style is for players who aren't afraid to play "marginal" cards, and excel at postflop decisions, nothing is more crucial to this style.
Definitely not the style for folks who don't know how to fold, or for folks who convince themselves that their opponents are always trying to push them off of a hand. I don't think I have the patience/fortitude/hand-reading-abilities to play a sole small-ball style strategy (or even the majority of my time at the table!), but you can improve your chances by dropping into that gear against opponents who are more susceptible to those sorts of plays.

Great post.
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Re: Poker Strategy Discussion

Post by The Meal »

Parties interested in participating in an OO poker tournament should see this thread in the Forum Games forum.
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