Starforce Boycott

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Of course, we still have http://www.boycottstarforce.org (Thanks Ranulf).
However, there were a few things that were suggested at Gone Gold that I think we should follow up on.

1. Writing letters to gaming publications to insist they consider Starforce when reviewing games, or at least let the gaming populace know if the game has starforce.

2. Somebody challenged anti-Starforcers to prove that Starforce is a detriment to our PCs. Somebody suggested going to http://www.hardocp.com/ (Thanks Gorky). I think that is a wonderful idea. However, we need to get moving on an "ask them" campaign.

Any other items I should put on here?

Ranulf · Post by **Ranulf** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:16 pm

Hmm, only thing I can think of is to change the name to .org.

tals · Post by **tals** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:34 pm

I'd actually just like someone to do a definitive test

I've had Starforce on my machine now for over a month, not seen any adverse effects of it and if I wish I can remove it.

I'm not pro Starforce but i'm not boycotting some of the best games in the market IMHO because of it.

If I do find adverse effects i'll take it up with the devs - if there is still no solution i'll then get on the bandwagon.

Tals

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:12 pm

Tals, my suggestion is to test your burning software to see if Starforce has messed anything up.

But my biggest question here is WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT HARDWARE TESTING WEBSITE? I feel like such a fool for forgetting the name.

Reemul · Post by **Reemul** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:29 pm

Yeah me to, i have a few starforce game son my system adn absolutely no issues with anything including daemon tools and alcohol 120% and nero. In fact i installed daemon tools specifically to see if anything happened.

If something does get buggered up then i might complain but till then.

noun · Post by **noun** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:34 pm

Two questions for the anti-Starforce people:

1) Does the Starforce installation actively "call home", or does it just not work with certain drives and software? I object to my PC turning into a drone most of all.

2) That list is a little out of date. Is someone keeping a current list of Starforce-protected games?

gorky1 · Post by **gorky1** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:35 pm

Must be http://www.hardocp.com/. It *is* a funny name.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:56 pm

I look on Starforce sort of like Vioxx. It may or may not have done anything bad to everybody but it did screw up quite a few. Why take the chance?

tals · Post by **tals** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:20 pm

Eduardo X wrote:Tals, my suggestion is to test your burning software to see if Starforce has messed anything up.

But my biggest question here is WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT HARDWARE TESTING WEBSITE? I feel like such a fool for forgetting the name.

My burning software Nero and Alchol are working fine - as far as I can tell.

I'll report back if this changes.

Tals

tals · Post by **tals** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:22 pm

dbt1949 wrote:I look on Starforce sort of like Vioxx. It may or may not have done anything bad to everybody but it did screw up quite a few. Why take the chance?

There was a thread in the avault forums which the codemasters developers got involved in. Their position was that whilst they had a couple of instances of people complaining that they had a problem they never seemed to stick around to work through it. They had no firm evidence of it causing any issue. That wasn't to say it didn't cause a problem just that noone then came to them - which seemed absolutely amazing. I know if I buy a game and it goes wrong my first port of call if the game devs.

Tals

wankerjr · Post by **wankerjr** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:10 pm

tals wrote:
Eduardo X wrote:Tals, my suggestion is to test your burning software to see if Starforce has messed anything up.

But my biggest question here is WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT HARDWARE TESTING WEBSITE? I feel like such a fool for forgetting the name.
My burning software Nero and Alchol are working fine - as far as I can tell.

I'll report back if this changes.

Tals

They may have figured a way around it on their own.

Even though it doesn't use Starforce, the Sims 2 did't work until I unistalled my DVD burning software. I didn't mind as I only used the program a few times but it was annoying trying to figure out why it kept telling me that it was unable to find the play disc.

tals · Post by **tals** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:49 pm

Yep their are two different arguments here

Boycotting Starforce and Copy protection in general when it does things like Sims 2, I believe RTW was reported to do something similar - however it didn't effect me.

In terms of Starforce I believe if your cd image is on a mounted virtual drive then it won't work during a game as Starforce as I understand it disables that aspect - then again that was a reported feature from the anti camp (i'm in neither mind) so may or maynot be correct.

Tals

U2k Da Greate$t · Post by **U2k Da Greate$t** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:59 pm

I Don't know Why you Don't like Starforce.

Publishes should BE able to Protekt themselves Against the bad People who Want to Warez games.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:09 pm

Dang, I hadn't realized Enigma had that crap. Off it comes, now I have more work to do. Getting rid of the crap it will leave behind. If I find out that is why that PC has been locking up I will freakin explode!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:21 pm

Eduardo X wrote:Of course, we still have http://www.boycottstarforce.org (Thanks Ranulf).
However, there were a few things that were suggested at Gone Gold that I think we should follow up on.

1. Writing letters to gaming publications to insist they consider Starforce when reviewing games, or at least let the gaming populace know if the game has starforce.

2. Somebody challenged anti-Starforcers to prove that Starforce is a detriment to our PCs. Somebody suggested going to http://www.hardocp.com/ (Thanks Gorky). I think that is a wonderful idea. However, we need to get moving on an "ask them" campaign.

The link on the site for starforce removal utilty didn't get me to anywhere I saw it at. Can someone point me to it.
Any other items I should put on here?

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:40 pm

The CD burning speed test results that Jeff Jones posted (I believe it at least doubled his burn times) and other assorted reports of problems that were cured by removing Starforce have been enough proof for me to not let Starforce touch my machine.

Pitching a story to a hardware testing site is a great idea. Extremetech.com did a few articles on Turbotax and the C-dilla/Safecast debacle:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3 ... 013,00.asp

Check out nasty little stuff like this, which reminds me of the various undocumented and unreliable "features" of low-level Windows driver behavior that Starforce supposedly uses:

TurboTax: Sector 33 Naughtiness

Screw that.

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:50 pm

I have Alchohol 120 going all the time and it hasn't seemed to affect my installation of Sims 2.

Which is not to discount anyone who has trouble with it. There's been plenty of reports about it.

Just that there's some variable X in addition to having Alcohol installed. I'm not sure what that is though.

Sacred was another game that I ran with no problems although some people got bit by the copy protection.

I loathe warez and piratez but I also loathe hoplessly backwards copy protection schemes.

dangerballs · Post by **dangerballs** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:43 am

From http://www.star-force.com

A new title by Codemasters is No. 1000 in StarForce’s protection dossier
StarForce celebrates a jubilee title protection – time has gone by fast since the company’s engineers had invented the unique StarForce technology to protect a licensed disc, and since then a thousand different titles all over the world were released protected by StarForce CD/DVD disc copy protection solutions.

The protected title No. 1000 is Codemasters’ famous “Club Football 2005”, a new football action game. “Club Football 2005” was released on October 8, 2004 in Europe.

Codemasters choose to use StarForce Professional 3.0 to protect “Club Football 2005” because it is known to withstand the most insidious hacker attacks, reliably protect intellectual property and prevent license product counterfeiting. The unique algorithm to prevent illegal licensed media copying and software use is based on the principle of determining the precise physical characteristics of the licensed disc, and requires no modification of its physical structure. This provides strong security, excellent compatibility and is virtually transparent for the end user.

During the past four years StarForce has protected over 15 million discs in more than 26 different countries, including those with the highest piracy rate – China, Russia, the CIS region and others.

Now, with a thousand titles protected, StarForce celebrates this jubilee yet realizes they are still at the beginning of a journey. In today’s information society with its constant growth, the increase of PC ownership on a global scale , software protection becomes a necessity, for both IP rights holder and their customers.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:17 am

"Publishes should BE able to Protekt themselves Against the bad People who Want to Warez games."

And that means I have a new sig. I love it.

U2k, you are the greatest. Never leave us. Pure comedy goldmine.

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:31 pm

Just a quick note that Avault now puts a note up when demos have, or may have, StarForce, protection on the demo. Thought that was nice of them.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:37 pm

snoleopard wrote:Just a quick note that Avault now puts a note up when demos have, or may have, StarForce, protection on the demo. Thought that was nice of them.

That's fantastic, thanks for noting that.

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:10 pm

snoleopard, are you sure?

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:18 pm

Reemul wrote:Yeah me to, i have a few starforce game son my system adn absolutely no issues with anything including daemon tools and alcohol 120% and nero. In fact i installed daemon tools specifically to see if anything happened.

If something does get buggered up then i might complain but till then.

Actually, I think StarForce may be messing with your keyboard in a major way.

RookieCAF · Post by **RookieCAF** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:54 pm

Its on my system, to no ill effect, and if it does, I have a ghosted image of my install anyway.. 120% and Nero work fine too...

Post by **FishPants** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:52 pm

Eduardo X wrote:Tals, my suggestion is to test your burning software to see if Starforce has messed anything up.

But my biggest question here is WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT HARDWARE TESTING WEBSITE? I feel like such a fool for forgetting the name.

Were you thinking of Tom's Hardware perchance?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:03 pm

dbt1949 wrote:I look on Starforce sort of like Vioxx. It may or may not have done anything bad to everybody but it did screw up quite a few. Why take the chance?

I was a clinical guinea pig for Vioxx years ago before it hit the market. Time will tell whether it will make my heart explode.

I have no choice but to install some games with Starforce. Hopefully, the income from these games will offset the cost if it makes my computer explode.

tals · Post by **tals** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:21 am

My only suggestion/requirement would be make sure the game has a Starforce uninstaller (not worked out if they are universal). Then if you are concerned it is effecting the machine it can be uninstalled.

Tals

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:23 pm

Eduardo X...Yes, pretty sure. I usually visit just to see what demos are out, and the last few times I've been interested enough to click on one and read about it, if they think it may have StarForce on it, there's a blurb in the context of the information saying 'This demo may have StarForce copy protection included'.
Of the last three games I've been interested in trying the demo, two of them had that writen into the info about the game.
Just went there and clicked on the demos. The GTR demo, (I think it was that one), has the StarForce warning on it.

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:06 pm

The devs of Superpower 2 have hinted that they may remove SF protection from future versions of their game due to the tremendous negative feedback they have gotten due to it.

It would be a great day for the entire gaming community if they did.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:16 pm

That thread was funny! I was reading some fellow who was quoting our reactions from our very own Superpower 2 thread in the gaming forum.

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:01 pm

Hehe

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:32 pm

That is brilliant!
If GL takes Starforce off the game, we should all go run out and buy it JUST AS A WAY TO SAY THANKS!

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:39 pm

Yup, I'm keeping my eye on it. I'm buying two copies of the game if they actually remove the protection from it. I'm also going to every gaming forum I can tell them to buy a copy if they previously had their eye on the game.

Of course, this is all speculation so far.. I fear that the developers will just say "whoopsee do, if you have problems, take it up with Starforce, not us.", or somehow else try to reason with the makers of Starforce, only to get f'ed over again.

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:22 pm

If they remove the protection from that game ... which I've not followed closely ... I WILL go buy it.

tals · Post by **tals** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:25 am

setaside wrote:If they remove the protection from that game ... which I've not followed closely ... I WILL go buy it.

Trouble is setaside most people are not as honourable as you. Judging by Doom 3's download figures on release. So its arguable whether taking this protection out will get more revenue for the devs or just mean the game gets to more people

Tals

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:03 am

I too would give some serious thought to getting it without Starforce. There's 2-3 other games out there that I feel the same way about.

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:46 am

I would pick up Chaos League in a quarter of a second if it didn't have Starforce on it. Maybe we can find that developer and convince them too?

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:51 pm

Well.. I wouldn't get to confident just yet.. the latest dev posts wasn't to reassuring to me.

We never said we'd remove the copy protection right away. We fixed the way the copy behaves (doesn't take the display anymore) so people don't think the game crashed, but we couldn't remove the copy protection right away because people don't like it.

Like I said earlier, if it does harm or interfere with the system in any way, we'll remove it, but we have to see a valid point of that. So far, we've seen people that said that they knew of someone, or people that said that since they've installed SP2, their whole computer doesn't work anymore.

For those that have a reason to believe Starforce interfered with something else on their system, please contact starforce directly. No one, either at Dreamcatcher or GolemLabs, wants something in our product that could disrupt the computer of a fan. If something like this occurs, then we'll remove it. But we have to verify it first.

So i guess that they don't consider an entire thread scattered with people reporting cdrom problems as a valid point in removing starforce. In addition... how could contacting Starforce help at all in this situation, as the very core of their program, installing hidden drivers, is the cause of all the problems.

Its easy for them to say "No one, either at Dreamcatcher or GolemLabs, wants something in our product that could disrupt the computer of a fan", but its not as easy to actually follow up on it and put your money where your mouth is.

If they don't remove it, I guess I go back to playing WITP.

BacardiJim · Post by **BacardiJim** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:29 am

Some of you may have heard of me. I have been an active opponent of StarForce for the last year or so. As a reviewer of adventure games, I have made a point of letting my readers know about the inclusion of StarForce on a game.

I cannot speak for the Dreamcatcher side of the company, but it appears that The Adventure Company has finally quit releasing games that include StarForce. It hasn't been on any game they have released since Black Mirror. There was a huge public outcry against StarForce on the TAC forum (until it was shut down) when I started informing people of the potential problems it caused. I can't take personal responsibility for TAC's change in policy. But I'd like to think I did my part.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:17 am

Samurai wrote:Well.. I wouldn't get to confident just yet.. the latest dev posts wasn't to reassuring to me.

We never said we'd remove the copy protection right away. We fixed the way the copy behaves (doesn't take the display anymore) so people don't think the game crashed, but we couldn't remove the copy protection right away because people don't like it.

Like I said earlier, if it does harm or interfere with the system in any way, we'll remove it, but we have to see a valid point of that. So far, we've seen people that said that they knew of someone, or people that said that since they've installed SP2, their whole computer doesn't work anymore.

For those that have a reason to believe Starforce interfered with something else on their system, please contact starforce directly. No one, either at Dreamcatcher or GolemLabs, wants something in our product that could disrupt the computer of a fan. If something like this occurs, then we'll remove it. But we have to verify it first.
So i guess that they don't consider an entire thread scattered with people reporting cdrom problems as a valid point in removing starforce. In addition... how could contacting Starforce help at all in this situation, as the very core of their program, installing hidden drivers, is the cause of all the problems.

Its easy for them to say "No one, either at Dreamcatcher or GolemLabs, wants something in our product that could disrupt the computer of a fan", but its not as easy to actually follow up on it and put your money where your mouth is.

If they don't remove it, I guess I go back to playing WITP.

Sounds like a political speech, full of intentions that mean nothing. When it tanks I'm sure they will say it is the market for this kind of games, or consoles. Back to the wouldn't even accept as a gift column for that title.

Octopus Overlords

Starforce Boycott

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